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Our guest today is Dan Rutstein, whose career history is proof that you definitely don’t have to pick one job and stick to it. Dan graduated from York and his career (so far) has included journalism, diplomacy, consultancy and podcasting. Kate and Dan talk about taking opportunities, transferable skills, the importance of networking and how to make a ‘portfolio career’ work.

Dan’s first career was as a journalist, a news reporter at the York Evening Press before working in sport at the Bradford Telegraph & Argus and then Bermuda’s Royal Gazette. He then joined the British Government, working in London for the transport and business departments before serving abroad as a diplomat in Germany and Los Angeles. He was President of immersive technology company Laduma before being laid off during the pandemic. He now works as a consultant with Orange County Soccer Club, helping them with their international expansion. He hosts three podcasts – United States of Dramerica, Screaming into the Hollywood Abyss and (coming soon) America the Beautiful Game.

Useful links:

• For more information about Orange County Soccer Club
• United States of Dramerica podcast
• Screaming into the Hollywood Abyss podcast
• For more info about International Work
• Job sectors pages – UoY Careers and Placements
• Job sectors – Prospects website

Related podcast episodes:

• Luke D’Arcy, President at Momentum Worldwide
• Vivien Chung, Project Manager in tech
• Tom Banham, Director of Employability and Careers
• Charlie Jeffery, Vice-Chancellor
• Alex Dochery, Economic Growth Manager
• Laura Hallett, Head of Strategic Projects and Change
• Alison Critchley, Technology Delivery Manager, Co-op
• Lucy Vladev, BBC Journalist

Transcript:

Kate

You’re listening to the ‘What Do You Actually Do?’ podcast. Each week we want to bring you an inspiring interview, a useful tip or encouraging message to help you find your place in the professional world.

Hello and welcome to this episode of What Do You Actually Do? My name’s Kate Morris and I’ll be your host today. In today’s episode we’ll be talking about global working, leadership, business development, professional sport and working in tech. Today, we’re joined via Skype by Dan Rutstein, who’s the senior vice president of Orange County Soccer Club, podcast host and transatlantic trade specialist. So, Dan, what do you actually do? 

Dan

Well, hi, Kate. Thanks for having me on. So, that’s a much more complicated question than usual at the moment. So I think it would be fair to say I’m living a modern American  pandemic life, which means I am working, as you say, sort of… My main role is a senior vice president of international projects at Orange County Soccer Club. But I’m also hosting three podcasts, doing bits of consultation for two or three other companies, some board positions, and also, because California schools are not open and haven’t been since March of last year, I’m also homeschooling the kids. So it’s not the life I thought I would have, but it’s a very odd time. But I’m doing sort of quite a lot of different things at the moment. So what do I actually do? Lots of different things. 

Kate

If you’re doing lots of different things, how does that work? Are you having to kind of… Can you talk us through some of the sort of tasks that you might do, and how you flit between those different roles that you got on different days, or even on the same day at different times of the day?

Dan

Yeah, I think it’s a skill set that I actually developed by just having busy senior jobs throughout my career where you have to manage lots of projects within it. So my first career as a journalist, you’re working on multiple different stories ahead of quite tight deadlines. And then when I was working for governments, you had often, again, working on probably a couple of key projects, but a whole load of smaller projects that would come up, and ad hoc requests that would come down from ministers and so on. And obviously running a technology company with offices in multiple countries, there were all sorts of mini projects. So in some ways I view this new way of working as just an extension of that. Now, the slight difference is – I have, for example, I think I’ve got four different email addresses that I have to sort of keep an eye on. And I’m quite an organised person and my to-do list is split up by the different role. So I’ve got my to-do list in my work with the soccer club, but then I have three podcasts which are all weekly, so I have the to-do list around editing, finding guests, so on, for each of those. And then for the other work I’m doing, some of those are through a different email address, so I’m working on those as well. But it’s just a case of trying to stay organised and I think the variety of work is what makes it so fascinating. So my key role is with the soccer club, because I love sport. It’s a fantastic way of spending my time. It’s that old, slightly hackneyed expression around, you know – if you enjoy what you do, you never have to go to work. And it’s a version of that for me. I’ve always been lucky enough to have fascinating jobs, and at the moment I have sort of more than one fascinating job. So because everything’s fun and interesting, as long as you stay organised, it just keeps you busy. And yes, there is a bit of flitting from one thing to another, but in some ways there is a thread running through all of it, which is, I think, just what I’ve built up through my career, and it is around the international nature of it. So I’ve been working for the last six and a half years on one version or another of transatlantic trade or international trade. So even though all the elements I work on are slightly different, there’s a thread that runs through and often I can talk to one person and it’s for three of my different jobs at the same time, and that also creates some challenges, but also makes it fascinating. 

Kate

Futurists often talk about portfolio careers and the idea that it will become very common for people to change careers several times throughout their lives, and obviously some people, like yourself, are already doing that. How easy has it been moving between the different sectors? And did you have to convince employers of the relevance of your previous experiences and the transferable skills that you gained? 

Dan

So the expression transferable skills is a really interesting one, because I feel like it’s the sort of thing that, when I was at York University, people talked about that. But then when I went and got a linear job; obviously in England a lot more people have linear jobs, and also when I joined the workforce 20 years ago, no-one did these portfolio things, and the gig economy hadn’t yet been invented, or if it had, it hadn’t been invented in Yorkshire. So I took my first job as a journalist. And I had wanted to join the diplomatic service, I think I did some of the early application stuff in my final year of university. But then I fell into journalism, I did it for 10 years. And then when I reached the point I wanted to try something different, I applied for the government, and I joined the graduate programme. I was the oldest person applying for the graduate programme, everyone else was 22 and from Oxbridge, and I had a beard and I’d just been working as a sports journalist in Bermuda. But I applied for the government and it was… The application forms were very skills based. There were lots of questions which were about specific skills. I had to sort of sit back and think about that, because in journalism you don’t talk about personal development and skill sets in the same way. But when I was applying for it, when I had my interview, actually, I realised that a lot of the skills I’d learnt as a journalist – working under pressure, the significance of detail, learning a wide portfolio, being able to explain complicated subjects to people easily, being able to work with people of all different types – those skills applied equally, if not more so, in government, and particularly in the diplomatic service. So actually, I think what made me a good diplomat is the skills I learnt as a journalist going out, meeting people and understanding different things, that helped me. And then obviously, as I’ve moved through two more careers since then, I’ve realised that what I bring to these new jobs is an experience which isn’t about depth and knowledge of a specific area, it’s the ability to have these generic transferable skills, so maybe you don’t see as valuable, but actually are incredibly valuable in other industries. And bringing fresh eyes to a new industry is something that I don’t think is thought about enough. And I certainly feel, for me, what I lack in specific knowledge about an area when I move into it, I make up for by having a breadth of experience that allows me to see things differently and do things differently.

Kate

I think that’s really interesting, and I think that often it can help to have that wider perspective and not just be on a treadmill where you’ve kind of been funnelled, you know, you’ve risen up the ranks in this one profession, you know it inside out, but you can’t think beyond that. But I know that a barrier some people can make, particularly when they want to make a career change, is – “Oh, sorry, you’ll have to start from the bottom and work your way up again”. So I think probably your diplomacy skills and the really strong communication skills, as you say, you developed as a journalist, kind of getting stories from people, I’m sure that probably helped to sort of convince, you know, you need to have convinced someone to give you that shot and to take it seriously. I think there are… I’ve certainly, as a careers consultant, met people where that hasn’t been easy, that hasn’t been obvious to the person they’re speaking to, that they’re worth taking a chance on, that there’s value in this wider perspective. 

Dan

I think that’s absolutely right. So I think there’s a couple of different things here. So the whole – “you have to start again at the bottom”, it’s not completely false, but in some ways, you decide what that means and how you’re going to approach that. So when I joined the Fast Stream graduate programme for government – theoretically anyone can apply – but I remember when I went for an interview and I looked around the room, everybody was seven years younger than me. And so when I joined the Fast Stream programme, I was probably, there might have been one other person who was knocking on the door of 30, but everyone else was – it was almost their first job, or maybe the first job plus one year. And I thought, you know, I’m the oldest one here. And, you know, are people going to think, you know, what is this loser doing, he’s turned up late and, you know, we’re years ahead of him. But actually that’s not for me how I saw it. And actually what happened was – I joined the graduate programme, you’re meant to do, on average, four or five postings of sort of nine months each before you get promoted off the graduate programme into a normal job. And I think I got promoted after two. So I sort of caught up quite quickly, because my generic experience and skill set of just having been a grown up working in an office, interacting in a business environment, gave me something extra. And, you know, I remember there was a friend of mine who I was a journalist with who went to law school, and he went as a 27 year old, I think it was. And again, he was worried that he was five years behind. And, you know, I think there was a little bit of sniggering behind his back, that he was sticking labels on boxes at three in the morning, which is what trainee lawyers apparently have to do. And he was sort of a bit old for it, but he’s now caught up and he’s now a partner at a law firm, and he caught up quite quickly and he didn’t see it as a step down. So I think it’s a mindset you just have to get past, because when I left government work for a technology company, I went in as president, so there was no step down there. But what I’m doing with this football team, if I look at some of the…. We had a summit for all the teams in our league the other day. And if I looked at probably my equivalents in some of the clubs, they were 15 years younger than me. But I wasn’t sitting there thinking, you know, what have I done with my life, I’ve wasted myself. I was thinking – well, I can bring something entirely different to this job because I’ve got that experience. So I think mentally, I think people do worry that they’ve done the hard yards as a youngster and don’t want to have to do it again in a second career. But often those hard yards are much less hard because you’ve got something that you’re bringing to the job which will speed you through. And then also, I think the whole thing around what you bring to a new job, it’s an incredible value. I remember when I was, I think I was deputy consul general in Dusseldorf, my first overseas posting with the government, and I had a really good first year and we did my sort of end of year appraisal. And the consul general said to me, I think the reason you’re doing so well is you don’t know how this job is meant to be done. So you’re just doing it how you want to do it, and that’s added real value. And frankly, that’s… I’ve applied that now twice more in a completely different career. So I, you know, I’ve never worked – I worked in sports journalism – but I’ve never worked in sort of the administration or sponsorship side of sport, and I’m now working for a sports team. And I’d like to think I’m adding real value, not because I know how it’s done, but because I don’t know how you’re meant to do it. So I’m approaching it with an entirely different mindset that maybe gives myself and my team an edge. 

Kate

So, I agree with all of that, and I think certainly the confidence element. And I’ve met other people who, they’ve started their career later in life because they’ve been doing lots of postgraduate study, they  maybe done a PhD, and maybe decided not to go into academia, and got into something else. And even though you might be, as you say, you are starting at that graduate scheme level, or entry level, actually progressed faster because you do have that confidence and that kind of experience to push you through. With the soccer club, can you say a bit more about your role, what you’re doing and what the purpose of it? Are you trying to sort of get sponsorship? What’s the sort of ultimate goal of it? 

Dan

The short version of this is: we are Orange County Soccer Club, we play in the second tier of American soccer. So there’s MLS, which is the top tier, and then there’s a level below, which is the USL, which is where our team plays. And we have got a mindset as a team to be very different from other teams in our league. So we want to succeed on the field, but there’s a whole broader story about what we want to achieve. And a lot of it is around changing how American soccer works. So there’s an obsession in America, where if your child is good at any sport, or actually is good academically, you send them to college on a scholarship, which saves you the hundreds of thousands of dollars that it costs to send people to university in America. Now, obviously, I know there are tuition fees in the U.K. and I think people don’t like them, but they’re nothing. I think, you know, you get like a day’s tuition in America for what you pay for a whole year in England. So our club are trying to do it  differently, which is if you’re a good young soccer player in Southern California, or frankly beyond, rather than just trying to help you get into college, we will try and help you get a role with a team in Europe. So we find the best place and sell them to European clubs. So we’ve sold a player to a team in Germany, we’ve sold a player to Rangers – Glasgow Rangers – who we now have a strategic partnership with, which is about player and coach exchange, and some commercial stuff as well. So we’re this sort of little soccer team. Now we get maybe four to six thousand people at our games, which obviously, it’s not the Premier League, although, you know, I support AFC Wimbledon in England who play in front of crowds of that size, so it’s not that daunting for me. But yeah, so we are a smallish club. But the aim is to build our international profile, partly so that the best young players in America know that we do these partnerships, but also so that European clubs know what we’re doing and we can strengthen that. So the fact that the owner decided hiring a former British diplomat to work in his team, in itself I think says a lot about the club. Because I very much doubt any other team would hire a former British diplomat who’s never worked in sports administration, because why would you. So I’m bringing in – my role is helping on the commercial side – so bringing in sponsorship, partnership, but not just the local Orange County companies. I’m talking to British companies, I’m talking to Scottish companies, in particular because of the Rangers relationship, but also national brands in America. So we’re trying to bring in the sorts of sponsors you might not necessarily get for a team like ours, but because we offer more than usual, we’re trying to bring in different sorts of partners. But also we’re trying to make it much more broad than that. So in a way, using the old transatlantic trade work that I did as government, I’m trying to expand this into a whole corridor of activity. So in a post-covid world, where people and goods can move more freely again, we’re looking at how can we set up sort of travel corridors between Orange County and Scotland, where our fans go over, watch a Rangers game and then go and travel around Scotland, spending money, you know, in the economy there. How can we help Scottish companies export to Southern California? How can we work with Orange County companies looking to export to Scotland? So this isn’t just about an on-field soccer play, this is a much broader relationship. So I’m bringing in those sorts of diplomacy skills, and yes, I’ve got to bring in commercial sponsorship, and, you know, that’s important to raise revenue. But it’s also about telling our story, it’s about getting, you know, brand awareness, you know, this podcast is another chance that some tell some people about this little club that they’ve never heard of, who are actually doing extraordinary things. So it’s all about just creating awareness to enable our core business model to work better. So it’s sports leadership, and it’s commercial partnerships, but it’s also a lot more than that. 

Kate

You’ve mentioned a lot of the trade and diplomacy type skills that you’ve brought from your other professions. What are the kind of personal strengths or qualities would you say you need to have to be, to enjoy… You mentioned earlier you really sort of enjoy the role. So what do you need, to be able to be happy in this type of professional sport, international related roles? And I guess the broader, you know, working in this portfolio career way, where you are managing a few things at the same time. What would you say are key elements you need to have if you want to be, sort of, not be completely stressed out, but see it as an enjoyable thing? 

Dan

Certainly for me it comes down to enthusiasm and passion, but in an authentic way. So I actually like doing these things. So I became a journalist because I found it interesting talking to people and understanding things around the world; I was a curious person, you know, in the asking people questions sense, rather than I-am-odd sense, although there are elements of both. But, you know, as a curious person I found it fascinating. I love the fact that, you know, as a news reporter… So I worked for the York Evening Press. So after I graduated from York, I stayed in town, and I worked for the local paper. And I just, you know, I got to know York and Yorkshire in a completely different way. And for me, that was just fascinating; a boy from London. I was up in Yorkshire and I just explored the environment, meeting people, getting to know people, feeling comfortable talking to people, you know, everybody from TV personalities to government officials, to unfortunately, people who just lost relatives in tragic ways because, obviously, that’s part of what a journalist does. And I just, you know, I’ve always found myself a people person. And then, you know, I’ve always loved sport – I’ve played it. I’ve officiated in it, I just really enjoyed it. So obviously I got the chance to move into sport. And again, that does not feel like a job when you are… I’m not sure how many York students have been down to Selby, but, you know, I covered Selby Town against Manchester United in a pre-season friendly, and interviewed Sir Alex Ferguson and David Beckham. You know, if you like football, then why wouldn’t that be an extraordinary way of spending your time and being paid to do it? And I’ve, you know, I’ve taken that on the road with me. And I’ve always liked to travel; I’ve got a sort of international family background. So I always felt very comfortable travelling, When I was at university, actually, I did… There was an exchange programme – I’d like to think it still exists – but I went over and spent a year in Toronto, at York University in Toronto, as part of my programme. So I only spent two years at York in England because I did my middle year abroad. So I’ve always sort of like travelling, and then I moved to Bermuda, and worked as a sports journalist there. And I got the bug for international travel, and meeting people, and living in these different environments, and understanding the world, which is why I then joined the government with the aim of joining the diplomatic service, which I did for many years. And again, I just, I like that sort of job, it was about talking to people, meeting people, understanding things and lots of interaction. There was very little sitting in front of a computer filling in spreadsheets. So my wife is a CFO, she just spends all her time, I think, filling in spreadsheets. I’m sure there’s a little bit more to that. But, you know, she’s an accountant and that’s what she does. You know, we always used to joke, because her 15-hour days were spent in front of spreadsheets, and my 15-hour days were taking somebody for breakfast, giving a speech, taking somebody for lunch, visiting a factory in an afternoon, then hosting an evening reception. That’s just how I love to spend my time. And so genuinely being enthusiastic about what you want to do, it just makes it a lot easier to work harder, because you genuinely care about the outcomes and you enjoy interacting with other people. 

Kate

It sounds like being really interested in what it is that you’re doing, but also seizing opportunities, regardless of the context that they come from, but just giving it a try and seeing what happens from it, it sounds like that’s a big part of it. There’s lots of stuff that sounds really fun, and yes it does sound way more fun than staring at spreadsheets. What’s the worst aspect of working in this way? Either in professional sport, or more generally in balancing quite a few things. What is the thing that you have to push yourself to do, where you sort of, you don’t look forward to? 

Dan

It’s a great question. And I think the answer comes from… The flip side of the sort of working in something you enjoy is when you stop enjoying it, or the elements of it you were doing stop being fun, and then knowing how to deal with that. And that happened to me a few times. So when I was a journalist, you know, my whole thing was meeting people, writing stories, having adventures. And then I got promoted, which was great. But when I got promoted, I stopped writing stories. I started editing other people’s stories, I started filling in timesheets and approving expenses, and that side of it. And that wasn’t… You know, it’s a natural progression of promotion. But actually, that’s not what I enjoyed. And knowing that you’ve either got to reassess and think – what can I do instead. And for me, that was when journalism started turning a little sour for me. And also, you know, I love sport and I was being paid to watch sport. But there was a point where I remember watching a game and something happened during the game quite late on in the game, which meant I had to rewrite my match report, which I’d already pre-written. And I remember being slightly irritated that the game had been so exciting with a big finish at the end. And then I knew that I needed to stop being a sports journalist, because I was getting irritated at what should be exciting. And so, you know, I was still very involved with sport, but, you know, I then went back to being a fan. And I think I’m allowed to say this now I’m out of government, but, you know, being a diplomat was the most extraordinary job. But, this is obviously not about politics, but after Brexit happened, my enthusiasm for working on behalf of the government, when I fundamentally disagree with what the direction of government was, made it hard for me to continue to do that. So I think the risk is, when you have a passion job, when you lose your drive or passion for it, then it becomes harder. So, you know, in the same way that lots of American diplomats resigned during the Trump administration because they disagreed with it. And there will be diplomats resigning because they don’t agree with how Biden wants to do things. You know, for me, working for the government had lost some of its shine, because I didn’t agree with some of the fundamentals anymore after that vote. So I had to move on. And I think it is about balancing that. So, you know, now I’m working for a soccer team. Our season starts in May. You know, it’s going to be interesting, because obviously I want to, you know, I want to… I don’t support the team, because they’re not my team. But obviously now I’m getting to know the club, I’ll obviously want them to do well for all sorts of reasons. But, you know, I’ll be going to matches and I’ll be enjoying the matches. But I’ll also need to be doing my work, you know, looking after our sponsors and working with partners and all that sort of stuff. And I think, you know, it’s about just making sure, if you’ve got a passion job, that you can manage your own emotions around what happens when it stops being as much fun, because then why are you doing it. 

Kate

I think that’s a really good point. I think sometimes if your work and your identity are so entwined, if the work side of things starts to lose its shine, that has really significant implications about how you feel in your life and your sense of self, and all of those things. So, yeah, there’s lots of tempting things about doing something that – “Yeah, I was born to do this. I love this. It’s not work, it’s fun”. But then if it changes, it’s perhaps more difficult to deal with than if you’re doing something where it’s just a job and you make money. 

Dan

A 100%! And you know, since you raised this incredibly important point around identity. So I’m very comfortable saying I’ve never had a job. I’ve had a life built around careers, and I associate a lot with that. And partly because, if you were a journalist, you can’t just clock off at five o’clock, that’s just not how it works. Partly because that’s actually not how you do the job well. But also psychologically, the sort of person who is a journalist is curious at five past five about what’s happening in the world, it doesn’t turn itself off. But I’ve always thrown myself into jobs, and they have been more than just a job. They’ve been a lifestyle, they’ve been a career, and my sense of identity. So when I was a sports journalist, you know, that was me. I was a sports journalist – I watched sport, I talked sport, I watched games when I wasn’t working, I was always researching, that was my life. And when I joined the government, very much the same thing. Particularly when you are a diplomat, and you’re overseas, and everyone who meets you knows that you’re a diplomat and you can’t separate yourself from the job. And I’m very comfortable with that, that’s how I’ve chosen to live my life. I was never a clocking off sort of person. But where it gets complicated – this is something that obviously has happened to many more people in the last 12 months than ever before – is when, you know, I was president of a technology company, I was living that company, and then the world changed and I was laid off for the first time. I think that gets really complicated, because if you wrap your life up within a role and then the role is taken away, then what have you got left and how do you rebuild from there. And I think it was a really interesting time, and gave me a chance to think about what was important in a completely different way. And I think as I’ve re-emerged out the other side in this portfolio career, which I probably wouldn’t have chosen because, I think because of my time in government, sort of the prospect of being a gig worker or a consultant, just didn’t really appeal. It all felt a little bit like not a real thing. But actually, now that I’m doing it, you know, again, I’ve actually, I’ve thrown myself into the projects in the same way, but I’ve sort of rediscovered my identity. And actually I’ve decided, certainly for now, my identity is working across all of these different areas that I enjoy. So I’ve sort of managed to find myself again. But it’s quite a risk in some ways to go, if you throw yourself into these careers and then they disappear, it can be quite hard to find yourself again.

Kate

I think, yeah, a lot of people are facing that. And we’ve spoken in other podcasts about graduating in a recession, living through and building a career, surviving, pivoting as a result of various different redundancies and recessions. And it’s just part of life, isn’t it. And it’s having… You do have to take stock sometimes and take a different perspective on it, and see that actually you’re more important than that one job and you’ll be okay. And you’ve got skills, and they can be put into different contexts. And it’s just digging deep to the essentials, rather than all the trappings of a title, and, you know, the hierarchy and all the rest of it.

Dan

Absolutely. It’s obviously, it’s easier 20 years into my working career to have these sorts of thoughts now, than, as you say, if you’ve just graduated into this environment. But, you know, I sort of looked around at what was important. And I used to travel every week. So in the last year before the pandemic I flew from California to Utah two or three times a month. And I was in England ten times in a year, which obviously is, you know, an eleven hour flight from Los Angeles. So it was an extraordinary amount of travel. And I was top tier in the hotels and I was, you know, the highest frequent flyer status with the airlines and all this sort of stuff. And you know, it was what it was, but I wouldn’t spend as much time with my kids and all that sort of stuff, and obviously the pandemic has changed everything. And now, you know, you have to be careful about making huge life decisions during a global pandemic. But, you know, what I’m doing now, I’m incredibly busy because I’m doing so many different things. But, you know, working for a soccer team, I podcast basically about things… I’ve got three podcasts, and they’re all about my hobbies, you know, I love whisky, that’s one thing. I’m fascinated by the world of Hollywood, that’s another. And I’m about to start a third one, which is about soccer. So I’m sort of being a version of a sports journalist again and tying it into my new job. Like I’m doing all of these things, but I’m doing them in a way where, even when life goes back to normal, I’ll go and watch football matches – sorry, soccer matches – that my team play playing in, and I’ll pretty go across to Glasgow a couple of times as part of that partnership, but I won’t have a job in another state, which I’ll travel to every week. And I will think about travel in a very different way and about how much time I want to spend at home. And the balance between what I earn financially and what I’m getting out of life, I feel like I will have reassessed that as part of the pandemic. And like I say, it’s easy to do in your early 40s and much harder in your 20s, but I think if I get offered what I would call ‘real jobs’ in the next six months, so sort of traditional linear jobs with maybe huge commitments in terms of time or travel, I may not take them, in a way that, I would never of thought that I would turn down those sorts of jobs a year ago. And like I said, you shouldn’t make too many life changing decisions in a pandemic, but maybe in some ways you should. And actually, finding what’s really important, which may be money, but it may well not be money. It may well be, you know, the chance for travel, or it may well be the chance to not travel, or the chance to live somewhere you want to live, rather being forced to live in or near a big city. I think those sorts of things have changed, and may have changed forever now. And I think when you make decisions now, I think there’s more to look at than maybe the narrow perspective that you might have done before. 

Kate

So, for students, whether they’re a 21 year old about to graduate, or perhaps a mature student who has kind of gone back to uni to try and make a change, any advice on what they should be thinking about, researching, anticipating, trying to get experience in to sort of prepare them either to work in any of your professions, so in professional sports, in the sort of international related work, in this sort of diplomacy work, or in the podcasting world, or in even in the idea of having a portfolio careers. Any advice that you would give to someone who’s sort of starting out, that would be good for them to sort of prepare themselves for whatever the future may throw at them? 

Dan

You’re very good at this, Kate! 

Kate

Oh, thanks!

Dan

So first of all, the whole sort of gig economy thing. So when I graduated, I don’t think it existed. Like I said, maybe it existed like a corner of Silicon Valley. Now, particularly in America, it’s very prevalent. But I think it’s becoming a little bit more so in England. And obviously the pandemic has speeded up all sorts of things related to people working for themselves and working remotely, and so on. You know, there are risks to this sort of routes, particularly, I think, if you’re younger. So unless you’ve got a very specific skill set, like – and I think this is a big thing in Silicon Valley now – if you are, you know, if you’re in tech and you’re – not sure they call the programmers – but, you know, if you’re a web designer… You know, if you work in a very specific tech job with a specific skill set, there’s plenty of people in Silicon Valley who are working for three different companies at the same time. That’s become an accepted way of working. And it’s a sort of freelance gig and it could work very well. It can be incredibly lucrative, and you can choose projects, and if one of the companies you worked for goes bust, then you’ve still got two others and so on. But unless you’re in a very specific role there, it’s quite a dangerous game to play I think, when you are new, because you don’t have the network, you don’t have the breadth of experience that you can really offer a lot as a consultant. So it’s a risky role to go down. I think a traditional type role probably is a better bet when you’re younger. And younger doesn’t mean, you know, when I say I’m in my mid 40s and I’m doing it now, but I don’t think you have to wait this long. But maybe you want to get, you know, five to ten years work experience in a probably a traditional work environment. I think that would be really valuable, before you start doing this, because it can be a bit risky. It can be a bit uncertain, because theoretically the tap could get turned off from any of these different roles immediately, and then you can leave yourself in tricky waters when it comes to mortgages and families and so on. So I think, consultancy needs to have something behind it, and obviously, the longer you go on in your career, the more you can build. I think the second thing is, I have been amazed at how generous people are with their time and their experience. So I’m blessed with a very broad network from having worked in such a variety of roles. But every time I’ve needed people, there have been people there for me. So some of them are people I’d work with, who then become helpful when you are no longer working together. But actually just the broader community is incredible, people actually are just nice. And I think one of the things I’ve been doing for years is, when people have sort of said, you know – My nephew’s thinking of becoming a diplomat, can you speak to them? or… A friend of mine is a school teacher in York actually, and when I was a journalist, I came and did a talk to his class about sports journalism. Like, there’s a lot of people who are very happy to help people younger than them with advice. So don’t be afraid to ask. Obviously, the older you get, the more you work, the broader your networks, so you can ask for people. But actually, if you’re thinking about doing a job… I use LinkedIn a lot. I think it’s an incredible tool. Of all the social media platforms, it’s about the only one that’s not sort of scary and full of risk. You know, LinkedIn is definitely for good in the business world. And I think, you know, look around, work out who you know, or look up people who you’re interested in and frankly, reach out and ask for advice. You’d be amazed at how many people would help. I mean, obviously, as the result of coming on this podcast, I’d be delighted to help anyone who’s interested. But I’ve sort of always had that offer open, and I’ve taken advantage of that from other people. And I think it’s definitely worth doing, because if you’re thinking about doing something, don’t just read the brochure. Actually ask somebody who’s worked for that company, or worked in that career. And you would be amazed at who’s ready to help you, or give you an opportunity. And I think, yeah, I’ve certainly benefited from that. You know, the whole pay it forward thing – I don’t if I say that in England as much as I do in America – everyone’s paying it forward here. But actually, like, legitimately paying it forward, so not in some sort of weird Machiavellian transactional, I’ll pay it forward but can I have 10% of the transaction type way, which happens a lot in Los Angeles particularly. But actually, like, be nice to people, because actually, you know, you might need their help later. And so, you know, I have found people to be incredibly generous with their advice. So when I started the sports work, I got in touch with everyone I knew in sport, and people were like -“Oh, you know, my my brother works in sport, you know, do you want to speak to him?” And you call them up, and they, you know… People were sending me business plans for their sports teams, and all sorts of unnecessarily  generous and incredibly helpful things. So, you know, even if you’re young, you just graduated and you don’t have a great network yet, find somebody on LinkedIn who you want to learn from, and reach out to them, and get some advice, because I think nobody can explain a career better than somebody doing it. Or just listen to this podcast would be a third and quicker way. 

Kate

So it’s kind of taking time to do the groundwork, you know, take your time to build up experience, so you’ve got a solid foundation, build relationships, ask for help, but give back as well. It sounds like just maintaining those relationships, that two way street, I think, yeah, that sounds like really solid words of wisdom.

Dan

And then if I can… Just two other quick things on that. So there’s sort of two phrases. One was one piece of advice my dad gave me. And then the second one that I’ve read it in a book somewhere, I don’t even know where, but it’s quite a standard thing, but – it is better to regret things you have done than things you haven’t done. Obviously within reason. So, yeah, I’m not talking about experimenting with drugs in your final year of university, I’m talking about sort of career. So, you know, when I was in Bradford working as a sports journalist, thinking – what should I do next? I was covering the Commonwealth Games in Manchester in 2012, and I was at the bus stop from the media centre on the way to cover the diving, because that’s what you do during a Commonwealth Games. And I met a guy who was the deputy sports editor of a newspaper in Bermuda, and we got chatting, and he told me that he was leaving soon, and would I be interested in going to work for Bermuda, for the newspaper in Bermuda. And I thought – do I want to live in Bradford or do I want to live in Bermuda. So it’s just, you know, I applied for it and it was a long process and I got it, and I ended up moving to Bermuda and had the most amazing experience. And it would be very easy not to just randomly move to some tiny sub-tropical island, because it feels a bit scary. So, you know, I did it and I’m glad I did. And there were jobs I’ve applied for and not got, I am the master of not getting jobs. I think I’ve probably been turned down – combination of internal jobs within government and then sort of external jobs – I must have been turned down between 50 and 70 times for various jobs over the years. And there are jobs where I’m not even… Some of them I applied for not even entirely sure I wanted them, but I wanted to apply for them and then get turned down from them, rather than not apply. And I always wonder, and I think, you know, when you’re younger, particularly, just make bold decisions, because actually there’s plenty of time to unwind things. So, you know, I moved to an island, and people thought, you know, what are you doing. And it’s worked out fine for me. So I left the diplomatic service, which is incredibly hard to get into. And if I’d stayed… After Los Angeles I was meant to go back to London, and off to another posting. And, you know, I may have fulfilled my aim of being an ambassador, but I walked away because I wanted to get a green card and try life in Los Angeles. And it was a brave, potentially foolhardy thing to do. But I did it, and it sort of worked out. So I think, you know, making brave decisions, and not thinking about something, and then not doing it. And then the second thing. I remember actually, when I was leaving sports journalism trying to decide what to do next – was I going to go to law school, was I going to train as an accountant, was I going to join the government. My father said to me, having just retired, actually, he said – a job he should have walked away from when he was unhappy and didn’t, and a couple of other  opportunities. And I think for me, you know, when I was thinking about that, because one of my options after Bermuda was just to go be a sports journalist somewhere else. And, you know, I sort of flashed myself forward 30 years and thought, do I want to be a sports journalist forever, and that be the sum of my achievements. Or do I want to, you know, to have done something more, and done some public service and travelled the world as a diplomat. And, you know, that helped me make that decision. And it doesn’t always work, but it’s not a bad way of looking at things because it’s very easy to get stuck in a rut, it’s very easy to take a job that your friends think you should take. But actually, you know, think about how you would summarise your life, your working life at the end of it and think, you know, if I never left this job, I never left this place, is that how I want to view it. And I think for me, that’s my sort of test.

Kate

Well, that’s amazing. Thank you so much for all of that. For more info about any of the career areas that we’ve mentioned, I’m going to add lots of different relevant links to the show notes and a link to the full transcript of today’s show. But, Dan, thank you so much. I know it’s like literally middle of the night in LA right now, so thank you so much for joining us and for all your insights and honesty. It’s been really, really interesting. I’m sure it will be really helpful to lots of students and graduates. 

Dan

Well, thank you, Kate. It’s great to be on. I have nothing but fantastic memories of my time, both at University in York and then the time I spent in York as a normal person living in real life for the three years I was working at the newspaper. And like I say, if anyone wants to talk about any of the four careers, or what it’s like to not have a proper job, or wants to listen to my podcasts – then feel free to follow all the links. 

Kate

Thank you for joining us this week on What Do You Actually Do?. This episode was hosted by me, Kate Morris, edited by Stephen Furlong, and produced by both of us. If you love this podcast, spread the word and follow us. Are you eager to get more tips? Follow University of York Careers and Placements on YouTube, Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. All useful links are in this episode’s description. This has been produced at the University of York Careers and Placements. For more information visit york.ac.uk/careers