What Do You Actually Do? Episode 55: Ben Johnson, Working in financial services

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Ben graduated from York with a degree in Philosophy and after a few years found himself working in the financial services sector for Deloitte. It wasn’t something he planned. In the episode Ben explains how his first impressions of the sector were wrong, how you don’t need a ‘big summer internship’ to get into finance and how he’s found a job that’s a perfect fit for his strengths and skills. His job title is Associate Director – Global Mobility (Tax).

Ben’s bio:
I’m a Philosophy graduate who has quite accidentally ended up working in Financial Services. It’s an industry I didn’t expect to enjoy working in – I couldn’t be happier to have been wrong about that. In my role, I help people making international moves (and their employers) understand the tax implications of doing so.

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Transcript:

Kate:

You’re listening to the ‘What Do You Actually Do?’ podcast. Each week we want to bring you an inspiring interview, a useful tip or encouraging message to help you find your place in the professional world. Hello, and welcome to this episode of ‘What Do You Actually Do?’. My name is Kate Morris, and I’ll be your host today. In today’s episode we’ll be talking about working in finance. Today we’re joined by Ben Johnson, who’s an associate director in the tax division of consulting firm Deloitte. So, Ben, what do you actually do? 

Ben:

Hello. Thanks for having me. So that’s a really good question. Effectively, I work with companies and their employees, who send employees abroad. So I’ve kind of got two parts to my job, which is to help those employees understand what’s about to happen to them when they pick up their life and move to another country, whether that’s leaving here or coming here for the first time – there’s usually a warning about the weather in there for anyone coming from somewhere warmer. And then helping their employers understand what they need to do to make sure that they’re meeting all of their obligations, and paying the taxes correctly, and not accidentally paying too much tax – I do a lot of that. And also I’ve kind of over the years picked up a few sort of extra roles to kind of make things run smoother internally, and I get to help develop and coach people internally, which is a really warm fuzzy feeling actually, I enjoy that a lot. 

Kate:

I’m guessing the pandemic has had an impact on your role, if you’re helping people move abroad and we’ve not been able to go anywhere. Has it had a particular impact? Has it changed the nature of your work, or has it just added some extra layers of complications and perhaps therefore need for the type of work that you’re doing? 

Ben:

All of the above, I’d say. So, it was quite a disorientating time for everyone, for all sorts of reasons. For us professionally, planes being stuck on the ground and people not moving internationally obviously felt like it was a really, really kind of disruptive and potentially fatal challenge to our business. But actually, what we found quite quickly was that it was creating a whole different set of challenges. So a lot of the time we were dealing with people who were, in inverted commas, trapped by COVID, and that was a real thing, there were countries that closed their borders and you had people who were supposed to be coming back, let’s say, coming back to the UK, but they weren’t allowed to fly to the UK. Or just before COVID, had a couple of these, people come to the UK on holiday, they just see their family or something, and they can’t get back to where they’re supposed to be working, and they end up stuck, in inverted commas, in the UK until the borders reopen, and they end up having tax in this country, and that can be really stressful and disconcerting. And so our job really quickly pivoted to reacting to a lot of things that had been imposed on a lot of our clients by the pandemic. So if anything, we got busier, which from a sort of business resilience standpoint was a good thing, because we were kept very busy. But yeah, the nature of the work changed almost overnight, it was really quite something. 

Kate:

Your degree was in Philosophy, right? Where did your interest in financial consulting come from? What was your starting point? Did you do the Deloitte grad scheme? How did you decide – yeah, I’m going to get into this, and then make it happen? 

Ben:

I did indeed do a grad scheme. I was…. This is going to be quite a long story. 

Kate:

Go for it! We can edit it out if it’s too long. 

Ben:

So, when I was at university, I was – I think probably maybe a lot of students wouldn’t admit to this – but I certainly was really unsure of what I wanted to do and what I wanted to get out of a career post-university. Definitely when I graduated, I left uncertain and unsure, and I worked a few different jobs. I think, looking back, that simply gave me an experience of the working world and what I valued in employers, and gave me a really loose sense of what my strengths and weaknesses might be. One of those jobs was working – purely by chance, it was just I chucked my CV in – working for a slightly smaller firm in their tax team, which I really enjoyed, I just found that played to my strengths. And it wasn’t so much that I liked working in a financial consulting firm or that I liked tax in particular, I did like both of those things, but I wasn’t sort of wedded to either of them. It was more that it seemed to suit a set of things I enjoyed and maybe a set of strengths I was starting to develop. And a friend of mine encouraged me to apply for the Deloitte grad scheme, which I did very speculatively, and I actually found the interview process, there were two interviews, I found both of those interviews massively enjoyable, massively compelling. It was like any good interview should be – it was really conversational, and it wasn’t a kind of – get this answer right. It was genuinely conversational, and they were really interested in you as a person. So that sort of drew me into the job in the first place, and then I stuck around because the work has been interesting and varied. It’s quite personal as well, you spend a lot of time talking to the actual sort of person who is packing a suitcase to move to the other side of the world, and you are helping them with one of the sort of facets of that that is most bamboozling to them, and helping demystify that. That is how I sort tether it back to philosophy, because philosophy notoriously can be really sort of opaque and weird, and that’s why I did it. And a lot of what I felt I spent the majority of my time doing was taking really abstract difficult concepts, breaking those down into component parts, and making them kind of intelligible, [intelligible] and then back to someone marking an essay. And tax is a lot like that, it can get pretty weird and pretty abstract, they sort of deliberately don’t make the rules easy. So explaining that to people has a good sort of warm fuzziness about it. And yeah, there’s a sense of feeling useful as well. Our business is entirely relying on people, we don’t have any assets, there’s no physical thing we sell, we sell the expertise of the people that sit in our offices or, indeed since March 2020, sit in their homes at laptops. And yeah, that feeling of being useful and being additive has been, well, kind of borderline addictive and is why I’ve stuck at it. So yeah, that’s a very long roundabout way of saying – I sort of fell into it, but it wasn’t so much the immediate content of the job, as the what does it do for me, that’s kept me doing it and kept me enjoying it, and I still very much enjoy it to this day. I love my job! 

Kate:

It’s interesting that you mentioned the personal side of consulting, that working with individuals, helping them understand and navigate complex information. Because often people think of consulting – it’s about helping businesses make more money. So that’s interesting to hear that it can still align with your values, and you can still get that personal satisfaction from it, that you’re helping somebody and you’re doing something useful, albeit in a financial context. 

Ben:

Yeah, yeah. And there is the business element of it. Our clients are businesses, and so there’s absolutely that element of it, too. It’s hard to say which one is bigger, maybe they sort of take a 50/50 stage each. But yeah, that is relatively unique I would say – well, maybe not unique – but relatively distinct to this particular bit of tax consulting. You are dealing with human beings who don’t speak the tax language, and yeah, it is really rewarding to help them navigate that. 

Kate:

It’s an interesting point about how the interview process gave you an insight into the company culture and made you kind of want to give it a try. I think often people think of interviews as a massive power imbalance, that companies checking you out, you either pass or fail. Whereas actually it is an opportunity to have a bit of a dialogue, and get a sense of whether you see yourself there, as much as whether they see you there, and if you want to be there. So that’s really interesting to hear that having the temp work that you did, getting a better sense of what different workplaces are like, and what you were looking for from a job, then allowed you to sort of be able to make an informed choice, and I guess a more informed judgement about the quality of what you were seeing in that Deloitte interview, and that that was going to be a good fit for you. 

Ben:

Yeah, absolutely! I think in my first interview I got asked, I think it was just a generic question about hobbies or something. And so I was talking about, you know, sports I play and stuff. And I got asked – “Oh, do you have to go to some training sessions for your sports team?”, so I said – “Oh yeah, on a Thursday night”, and the person who was interviewing me said – “Look, if you work here, make sure that whoever you’re working for knows that, because we absolutely want to make sure that you can go to that.” Because I thought that that question was sort of angle at – Oh, you know, you might not be able to go to that all the time, because things can get pretty busy, but it was the exact opposite. It was – “We want you to be able to flourish outside of this building”. And that was something I’d never encountered in a job interview before, someone actively trying to find out, you know, is this person going to have a kind of sustainable future here. [Inaudible] They wanted to make sure that I would be in a position to continue to lead a happy life. I think sometimes the outside perception is that you end up working for somewhere that’s just get up, work, go to sleep again, all week – and it’s really, really not like that, I was actively encouraged to make sure that I’m not spending plenty of time at my desk and that I am leading a wholesome, fulfilled life outside of this place, which is really actually, from a hard nosed business standpoint, super sensible because unhappy people quit. So making sure that everyone’s got nice balanced hours as just one example – is really sensible, and it was the first place I’d interviewed where they wanted to impress that on me straightaway within 10 minutes of the first interview, which I found really impressive. And they’ve been true to their word with that. 

Kate:

That’s really useful to know. And when I had a little look on LinkedIn at things you’ve been involved in, it is clear that you were sort of really heavily involved in sports and sports journalism while you were a student, and also holding down a part-time job. And you mentioned earlier that you weren’t too sure what you wanted to do career-wise after uni. So it sounds like sports continue to have an impact on your life. I’m just wondering, did those experiences have any kind of impact on your career? 

Ben:

I think so. Yeah, I’ve definitely played a lot of team sports over the course of my life. And there is a certain way of communicating during a match or something, that lends itself quite well to being a good communicator at work. So if you just lose your rag and shout at someone when something goes wrong, things just compound and get worse. You have to be able to find a way to address what went wrong, and find a solution to that as quickly as you can, but go about that in a way that’s encouraging and genuinely within the spirit of the team. So I mean, that got talked about at the interview a lot, and I think that that’s true here as well. Right now I’m sat in my office at work, there’s a lot of us in the building today, because we’ve got an event this evening, but we literally sat physically in a team. And it’s not actually that dissimilar to a sports team, in that you’re in close proximity to each other, and if something goes wrong – you go around and you help out. So yeah, it doesn’t mean that playing sports is in any way some sort of a requirement for having a job like this one, but it’s a useful experience that lends itself quite well. I think the trick is just in drawing the line between what you do outside of work and what you do inside of work, and making sure you borrow the best bits from each. Because work can have an impact on outside life as well, it can go the other way. 

Kate:

There’s also something about, you know, really multi-tasking a lot whilst you’re a student to be able to get involved and have the time to do all of these things, as well as do your degree. And I guess switch your brain into different modes from the philosophy to suddenly the sort of sports, to suddenly the work, customer service, whatever stuff that you were doing, and the writing with the journalism. I wonder if that was a good training experience almost for the work that you’re doing now? As you say, you had to pivot quite quickly with the pandemic and adapt how you were working. It sounds like in your role, as you say, you’ve got this two-pronged element of training people, as well as doing the actual tax consulting. So I wonder if there’s something about getting involved in lots of different activities, and learning how to manage all of that, and switch your brain into different kinds of modes? I wonder if that was a helpful experience for then building your career? 

Ben:

Yes, I think so. But I would be lying if I said I was good at that when I was at uni, I was absolutely hopeless at multitasking when I was at uni. But actually, that in itself is valuable. I am definitely someone – as I’m sure lots of people are – who learns from doing stuff wrong the first time around. So I sort of joke sometimes that while I was at uni, I studied hockey and did a philosophy degree on the side, purely because I just made a real effort to attend as many sort of training sessions and matches and stuff for my sports team as I could, and my degree at points became secondary to that for me. Now, I still got the degree done, but it meant that I led a very kind of classic student lifestyle in that I was ending up writing essays at really unwise times of night and things like that. And that was definitely, if I was doing that now in my work life – that would be abysmal. There’s definitely some value in doing that wrong, but also knowing what it feels like. Every single student at university at some point is going to come up against a deadline and feel like – well, that was a squeeze to get that in on time. That in itself is a really good training, because you do have to balance a bunch of stuff, and obviously it’s uni, you move away from home or wherever for the first time, and you do start having to multitask, you know, just basic things like cooking for yourself and all that stuff. So yes, I think there was absolutely value in having experience in multitasking and sort of deliberately filling my time with stuff other than my degree. I didn’t get that right all the time, and I don’t think I still do get that right all the time, but it’s kind of part of getting better at a job, but also just growing up generally and getting better at doing all that stuff. The one skill, actually, I would say that I’ve still got to work on, but have been working on particularly in the last year or two… With the pandemic work invaded the home for a lot of people; all of a sudden I was sort sat opposite my girlfriend at a dining table, and we sort of almost both invading each other’s workspace. And being able to draw a line between those two things, whether that’s the time of day when the laptop just goes off or something. But more to the point, being able to switch that bit of your brain off, switch off the work bit of the brain – that’s a really important skill. If you’re in an office job that pre-pandemic was four or five days a week in the office, and then during the pandemic was five days a week at home, that was a massive culture shock. And the ability to be able to put work to one side and recharge is a really important one. You’ll never recharge if you go to bed thinking about – I’ve got this, that and the other to do at work tomorrow. So that more recently, and the pandemic has been both good and bad in terms of accelerating the importance of that. But also it’s put plenty of people in difficult positions, and stories from across the professional world of people experiencing kind of pandemic burnout are pretty common. Yeah, that for me is the most important facet of multitasking these days – is drawing that hard line. 

Kate:

And are you still working from home? Are you doing the whole hybrid working thing, or are you back full time in the office now? 

Ben:

We are hybrids, which I am loving, actually. So at the moment, I am  in the office somewhere between one and two days a week on average, and my aim with that personally is to make sure I’m using the office for what it’s best for. So if I just came into the building on a Friday and there was no one else here, then it sort of becomes a bit like a uni library. And I didn’t really need the office for that, I found during the pandemic I was really productive at home, whilst my girlfriend banished me from the dining room table and sent me off to a cupboard somewhere else in the house. We’ve now got our own space, so I’m actually really productive in that space. So when it’s a head-down, doing something on my own type thing, I’m actually better at home because there are fewer distractions. But in the office, that’s just perfect for all sorts of stuff, but mostly for me – being with other people, whether that is having a sort of learning or development conversation with people, what you’re doing more of these days, or just working on something tricky together. There is this kind of intangible quality to tackling a difficult problem with someone sat by your side and you can point to the thing, that’s really valuable. The other thing to say about that, at least where I work, they’ve not – and I’m going to be very grateful for this, the longer it continues – they’ve not moved to dictate the number of days. So I think, hearing the odd stories of certain industries saying – “right, everyone back into the office, all of you all the time please”, or some business are saying – “no, we don’t need an office, you’re all going to 100% work from home”. We’ve really deliberately been sort of – “well, let’s find what works best for us and for different teams within the business”. It’s a massive business, there will be different things to suit different teams. So it’s a challenge, but the task is that we find our feet, find what works for us, not just as individuals, but as collective teams. And we’re currently in an experimentation phase with that. It’s been fascinating to watch, and obviously working with lots of these companies around the world, it’s fascinating hearing what they’ve been doing as well. So it’s a proper revolution at the minute, it’s really interesting to witness. 

Kate:

On that, something that I’m seeing a lot of students and recent graduates at the moment, who haven’t had the chance to get an internship or work experience because things just got cancelled because of Covid. Is there anything that you would recommend people do that could make themselves more employable for the financial consulting sector, if they haven’t had the chance to get a nice formal internship? 

Ben:

Well, I definitely didn’t do an internship, and when I was at university, I was loosely aware of Deloitte, but I thought it was a plumbing company – like a toilette. So I had no idea what it was or what it did, I was a million miles away. So honestly, I think that’s a question I’m struggling to answer. So I strongly feel that there’s no requirement for you to have a certain degree or a certain background. Having any sort of experience of anything that you can talk about in an interesting way, I would say is the first thing. At a job interview, they’re not too bothered about what you’ve done before, they’re bothered about what you can demonstrate. Can you demonstrate an ability to talk about something in a compelling way? So much of this work involves talking to people, whether that’s internally or externally. Can talk in a way that’s clear? Also, can you be presented with a problem, and just start to show the initial sparks of dealing with that problem? I think it’s really common, we get interns every year, that’s fantastic. Sometimes I worry a little bit about the people who applied for those internships and didn’t get any, that they feel like that’s it, that’s game over. And that couldn’t be further from the truth. Once you get into an interview room with someone else, it’s very much about what you can bring, it’s not about what you’ve already acquired, if that makes sense. 

Kate:

Yeah, that’s really reassuring. 

Ben:

Yeah, I felt a bit like that when I applied. I felt like I’ve got no background in this, my degree feels like it’s going to be completely alien to everyone here, and I felt like I was this sort of weird outlier. And even after I got the job and went to those sorts… Tax businesses start you off with a long residential training course, which is brilliant fun. And when I was starting to meet the other 250 people that have joined that year, I was sort of really worried that they were all going to kind of have these incredibly intimidating, formidable backgrounds. And some of them really did, to be honest, but plenty of them were just like me. They all felt very self-conscious – I don’t think I did a degree that’s relevant, I feel like I sort of snuck in here by accident almost, and actually, not at all. Often those are the people that you find, the people who come in with sort of less knowledge almost, are easier. Now that I’m sort of training people, they’re easier to train sometimes actually, because they have no preconceptions. And so they’re entirely open, so they’re really moldable, yeah, lovely to deal with. So honestly, if I was talking to a student who said – “I just feel like I have no experience”, I’d say – Well, that’s fair, you are applying for an entry level graduate scheme. You are not expected to have loads of experience. If you have some, that’s fantastic. But if you don’t, you just need to be able to talk about the things that you know about and the things that you’ve done in a way that’s interesting. And there is some intrinsic value to you being you, the trick is in expressing that and not being afraid to express that either. That often is the difference between a successful interview, and not. It’s how well did someone express themselves and how well were they able to speak about themselves regardless of the actual content. Did they make it compelling or not? 

Kate:

And I guess that kind of genuine enthusiasm for the actual role and the organisation. 

Ben:

I think so, yeah. It’s very easy as well to Google it, and still feel bamboozled as well. So many job descriptions are written in a certain language that can still make you feel opaque. So it’s okay to go to an interview and ask questions, that’s something else I’d say. It’s fine to go in and say – “Yeah, I was reading this”, because that’s good, it shows that you’ve put some effort into trying to work out what the thing actually is. It’s absolutely fair to say – “I didn’t quite understand that”, and get the take from the person sat opposite you, they are going to really value that actually, there’s a certain bravery to that. 

Kate:

From when you were talking earlier, it sounds like there’s loads of elements of the job that you really love, the opportunity to support and train people and see them progress within the organisation, and then helping the individual clients and businesses. What’s the worst bit of the job?  

Ben:

In any job there would be easier times and less busy times. So busier times – our work is quite seasonal – so right now, actually,  we’re approaching our busiest time of year, so things are fairly frantic. I’ve been doing this a few years now, so that’s been less stressful for me than it was in years one and two, just purely by virtue of just having done it a few times. That can be the worst part of the job, if that sort of divide between life and work isn’t there. And that’s a skill that takes time, that takes practice and experience – that would be true in any job. Another feature that’s sort of unique to my job is sometimes you have to… We might get involved with someone’s taxes kind of right at the last minute. So the client says – “actually we’ve got this person who’s in this tricky situation. We’ve just been made aware of it, can you come in and work out what’s going on?”. And sometimes in those scenarios you have to give people some really challenging news. More often than not it’s – “you owe a lot more in tax than you thought you did”. And walking them through that, the first step is always not to beat around the bush. You’ve just got to give them the news. But then the next thing is helping them understand it. One of my colleagues has a really good saying, which is – you only owe it if you earn it. And so helping them come to terms with why that initially terrifying-looking number is theirs to pay to a government actually makes sense and walking them through that. That’s always something where I feel that we should get a little bit of training from doctors on how to give people bad news because no matter how many times you do that, it’s quite daunting. Especially because often you’re kind of, you might be relatively junior and you’ve only been doing this a few years, and you’re talking to someone who in their career at their companies is really senior, and is maybe twice your age or something like that. And you get amazing support internally on how to have those conversations, and there will be someone sat in the room with you to help you out while you do it, so there is always a safety net. But nonetheless, for all those sort of warm, fuzzy things I spoke about earlier for helping people and stuff, there is always an emotiveness to that. You are talking to people about effectively their own personal finances, and that obviously is a motive that affects their ability to do all sorts. And often you’re speaking to people with young families etc, so helping them navigate difficult pieces of news is really rewarding, but there’s always that moment at the start where you sort see their face fall and you think, you know, I feel like I’ve ruined this person’s day. It’s all the work you do after, where you help them navigate that, and thank you at the end that you get the rewarding bit back. But that first feeling is always a bit like – oof, it stings a little. 

Kate:

Again though, it sounds like those communication skills, those interpersonal skills, those are the real key things there. You’ve obviously got to understand what it is that you’re talking about, but as you say, it’s how you communicate that and how you help somebody accept the reality of the situation. 

Ben:

Yes, exactly. And they’re simply life experiences. Anyone who’s done a degree at a university for three years will have encountered stressful moments in one way or another. Being able to put that to good use and just remembering the sort of key skills involved and being a helpful, caring, conscientious human being – those are really important. There’s no one right way of doing that, and just being authentic to yourself, as cheesy as that sounds, is the right place to start. 

Kate:

So you mentioned how the pandemic has changed things for you, how the hybrid working is going, and how that’s impacting on your clients as well. Are there any other sort of key challenges that you feel the sector is going to be facing over the next few years, or topics/ideas that students should be aware of, that they could start to research a bit more, looking to start to think about maybe developing skills to work in those areas. Is there anything sort of on the horizon from your perspective? 

Ben:

The pandemic has definitely been a game changer. So the idea that you can, you don’t have to be in an office all of the time has been around for ages, but the pandemic has effectively accelerated massively the move from people doing work in offices to people doing work remotely or virtually, or however you want to describe it. In my industry at least, that means we have more cases where, I don’t know, companies say something to us like – So the nature of that is changing a little bit; I’ve seen it referred to a little bit as a talent war. So companies effectively being able to recruit people based on how good is a hybrid or remote working package they can offer. So that’s quite interesting. It certainly represents a change in the sorts of advice we’re going to be asked to give. Also, in a much larger sense our clients will come to us and ask us – “Well, what should we do, or how often should we let people work in other countries?”. You know, you might live and work in the UK, but be a French national or something, from a lovely part of the south of France, and you want to visit your family regularly and do some remote work there. How many times a year can you do that before you get your employer in hot water by accident? That’s a classic question we get asked. So the sort of the advent of the talent war and the increasingly hybrid/remote working world is still developing, and it’s something to watch. I would say if someone was applying for a job in the team I sit in, and then I was at an interview with them and they were able to talk about that in a relatively informed way, that would be a great conversation. There are plenty – millions probably – of articles online about which companies are doing what, you know, some companies have done to full remote, some companies say everyone should come into the office. What does that mean if you live in a different country now, or you’ve been displaced by the pandemic. So yeah, that’s a particularly, that is the hot topic, I would say – is the impact of the pandemic simply on the working world globally, I would say, if someone was applying for a graduate scheme, I don’t see any need for them to sit there and talk about tax, or expect them to be a tax expert. That’s what we want to coach them to be. But someone who is curious about the world and has made an effort to understand the sort of landscape of what it means to do a job these days, because that’s effectively what we’re advising our clients on half time. That’s a really valuable thing. There are some other sort of more tax specific things that are potentially coming down the pipe, the role that technology plays can only be stepped up over the course of the future, but that is at the moment sort of feels pretty slow to me. So yeah, the pandemic really is the big one, and this kind of advent of remote working, which is genuinely fascinating, not only internally for me working here, but looking at my clients and the issues that they’re facing as well. 

Kate:

Yeah, that’s really interesting. And it totally makes sense as a professional services firm kind of providing these different services for different businesses, having that awareness and understanding of what’s happening around the world, given that, you know, you’re a global company, and a lot of other professional services firms will be operating that same space as well. So just sort of taking that active interest, as you say, and really developing commercial awareness, which you can do, you know, as you mentioned, from looking at articles online, listening to podcasts, etc, it doesn’t have to be through a fancy internship where you’re talking to the people doing the job, there’s different ways to get that info. 

Ben:

And to talk to people you know, ask them, you know – How has your job changed since the pandemic?. Ask that question down the pub, ask it over breakfast, whatever it is. Yeah, it’s still to be decided in a lot of corners. What happens next? And that’s a really cool thing to be living through. 

Kate:

Definitely interesting seeing it in the university sector as well and how that’s changed, and is changing. And as you say, it’s all a work in progress, so it will be interesting to see how it all unfolds ultimately. And I think you’re right, it is really a revolution in how we work. Well, for more info about the careers we’ve mentioned today, I’m going to add some relevant links to the episode description and a link to the full transcript of today’s show. But Ben, thank you so much for a really interesting conversation points and for taking time out of your day to do this. It’s really been insightful and interesting. So, yeah, much appreciated. 

Ben:

No worries, thank you for having me, it was fun! 

Kate:

Thank you for joining us this week on “What Do You Actually Do?”. This episode was hosted by me, Kate Morris, edited by Stephen Furlong and produced by both of us. If you love this podcast, spread the word and follow us. Are you eager to get more tips? Follow University of York Careers and Placements on YouTube, Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. All useful links are in this episode’s description. This has been produced at the University of York Careers and Placements. For more information visit york.ac.uk/careers