Listen to this and all the previous episodes.

Useful links:

• Cafédirect website
• Cafédirect podcast
• Careers with social impact job sector page
• Retail job sector
• Sales job sector

Related podcast episodes:

• Running an advertising firm, with Luke D’Arcy
• Managing a University, with Charlie Jeffery
• A career in corporate social responsibility, with Daniel Arda
• Management Consulting, with Jo Auger
• Aldi Graduate Area Manager Programme, with Heather Wilkinson
• Getting on a top grad scheme, with Lewis McDowell

Transcript:

Kate:

You’re listening to the ‘What Do You Actually Do?’ podcast. Each week we want to bring you an inspiring interview, a useful tip or encouraging message to help you find your place in the professional world. Hello and welcome to this episode of ‘What Do You Actually Do?’. My name is Kate Morris, and I’ll be your host today. In today’s episode, we’ll be talking about ethical coffee, leadership, and the fast moving consumer goods sector. Today we’re joined by John Steel, who’s the CEO of Cafédirect. So, John, what do you actually do? 

John:

Kate, thank you for starting with a challenging question. What do I actually do? I mean, I guess I have a leadership role, and I suppose ultimately that is about orchestrating the resources of Cafédirect to deliver its mission and move it closer towards its vision. So, you know, the business has a purpose, and I guess I’m here to use the resources of the organisation to deliver against that purpose. So that’s broadly what I do. And what does that entail? It probably entails lots of different things. I would say I try to not be in meetings all the time. I’ve worked in jobs where you get in meetings all day long, and wonder what you’ve achieved at the end of the day. So I’d say I don’t go into tons of meetings. I mean, there are meetings that I do either run or attend, such as board meetings, the annual general meeting of the shareholders. Yeah, I guess every week I would meet with each of my direct reports individually, and I would meet with them as a team, and I try to meet the whole company. We used to all stand by the photocopier on a Tuesday morning, now we all get on teams on a Tuesday morning. So the reason I enjoy the job so much is it’s got quite a lot of variety. So, you know, some days you will be analysing the financial state of the organisation, and forecasting the business, and then making decisions about how you manage the outcomes of that analysis. Other days you’ll be communicating with people, perhaps coaching them, helping them to think through different issues and options. Sometimes you’ll be, you know, you’ll be doing podcasts or communication to a broader audience. Sometimes, you know, I think next week, I’ve got a meeting with the marketing director and an advertising agency looking at what’s the big brand idea and how do you express it. Then I’ve got another meeting… God, I’m doing more meetings than I said… Then I’ve got another visit to a manufacturing site where we’re looking at the capacity of the site and how it might work for us and things like that. So there is a lot of variety, because I guess, in a way, I suppose that’s one of the challenges of these jobs, is prioritising your time to deliver on the purpose you’re trying to deliver on. 

Kate:

So you started your career on a grad scheme with Nestlé, and have gone on to work with many well-known brands and products, including breakfast cereal, beer, seasalt, and now coffee. But what first attracted you to the FMCG sector, and what’s helped keep you interested for the last 30+ years? 

John:

I concluded when I was studying that marketing was the function I wanted to work in as a kind of trade. And I concluded that because I felt like it was the most authentic thing to do was really to match a company with its consumers at that stage. And so I felt that marketing was the best way to lead an organisation. I think kind of philosophically I thought that was the right way to very much have a market orientated approach to running business, and I wanted to learn more about that. I think I was also influenced by my environment. I mean, my dad worked in marketing, and I think that would have influenced me significantly as well. In terms of keeping an interest, in a way, I mean, I moved out of fast moving consumer goods in 2004, and started my own kind of tech start up and did that for four years. And I think doing that made me realise how much I loved being in fast moving consumer goods. Sometimes you have to, you know, you have to go away from something to realise how much it matters to you. And you know, I didn’t have the same passion for tech as I do for food and drink. And I think partly that’s probably to do with my own appreciation of food and drink. But also, when you’re building fast moving consumer goods businesses, you have a much more emotional connection for the brand – there is some functionality, but a lot of it is about more emotional positioning with consumers. So there’s a bit more, a little bit less functionality and a bit more emotion to things, which I think is very interesting. So seeing that dynamic when you’re in a business where you’re very much selling something quite tangible, and then coming back in, I think it’s… Certainly I find it really enjoyable. I think also, and I don’t know if this is of any help, I think once you get into something, you find that something that you feel very comfortable with and you excel at it, don’t you, if you get better and better at it. Yeah, so I think there’s a degree of, that’s kept it very satisfactory. I think the thing that’s kept my interest more recently is really working with Cafédirect, where, although it’s, you know, arguably got fast moving consumer goods in it, it’s really about challenging the way business functions and trying to find a way of enabling growth in social and environmental capital, and getting rid of the obsession with financial capital that the developed world’s had. So I think in a way, although I’m in fast moving consumer goods, I’m really in a kind of purpose driven organisation that’s trying to improve society and mitigate climate change, and get us all to think about the roles we have in changing the system in which we operate. So that’s quite heavy stuff, isn’t it? 

Kate:

Yeah, but it sounds like it’s a combination of – if you stay in a particular sector, you build up that level of expertise, which is quite a nice feeling to feel that you know what you’re talking about. Obviously, we’re always constantly learning, but to be able to build on that and feel – Yeah, I’ve got a specialism here. But as you say now particularly it’s really aligning with your values, and it must be great to feel in a position where you can actually have a practical influence on this, the sector that you’re working in, through the business that you’re working with. 

John:

Yeah, I think that’s a really important point for us all. I mean, certainly, you know, over our careers we’ll find ourselves working in places where there’s great dissonance between our values and the values of the organisations that we might work in. I mean, some people maybe are better at selecting than others. But when you find a place where your values are aligned, and you’re aligned with the purpose of the organisation as well, it is absolutely kind of wondrous. So, yeah, a really important point for anybody embarking on a career is to try to align values, as well as have a kind of strategy for building your own career and stuff. 

Kate:

So in addition to your work with Cafédirect, you’ve also got a number of student mentoring roles. So you’ve been working as a leader in residence at Leeds University Business School, and entrepreneur in residence at Oxford Brookes University. So how do these roles influence or complement your work at Cafédirect? 

John:

If you step back a little. Cafédirect – it’s got, you know, it’s got a purpose, it’s then got a construct called the Gold Standard, which is very much how it delivers social and environmental change. And within that construct, there are four pillars. One is about the environment, one is about smallholder farmers, one is about kind of more market oriented relationships with consumers and changing their attitudes and behaviour. And the fourth one is very much about business and changing the role of business. And so from a complementary point of view, being part of the discussion with the  universities about the role of business, different business models, and engaging with students – I think that’s a really key part of helping to change the agenda, so I think that fits very well. I think also, on a more personal level, engaging with students and seeing how they think, and helping them to be more challenging about the way the world is, is really good. I mean, you feel really well-rewarded by the curiosity and the desire to learn and the desire to change that you get from students. And also, practically speaking, we need to change. I mean, you know, we have quite a few factors going on that need us to take a different approach, and so I sort of, on a personal level, believe that engaging with students and engaging with academia is a very helpful thing. 

Kate:

So interesting though that seems to link with values as well. That feeling of being able to influence and learn from younger and different perspectives as well. So going back to sort of your role then, what personal strengths or qualities would you say you need to have to be happy and successful working as a CEO, because this is a pretty, being the the boss of everything, kind of a great responsibility and a great interesting challenge at the same time, but also the FMCG sector more generally. Is there any sort of particular strengths that are important? 

John:

Well, I think some people will want to get into leadership, they probably think it’s got good pay and stuff like that. But I mean, I think it’s not for everybody. I mean, clearly, it’s as you as you pointed out, it’s got quite a high level of responsibility and a high level of accountability and exposure really, you know. So I do think you need to be pretty resilient and able to cope with change, because ultimately you’ve got to respond to that. So I do think you’ve got to be flexible and adaptable, but also be resilient in terms of not being fazed by, at the moment inflation, in the recent past the pandemic. And then also, you know, in many of these markets, you’ve got a huge competitive rivalry, which means you need to compete quite hard. And when you’re a social enterprise, or a B corp, you’ve got to compete with companies that are totally commercially focussed, but still try to stay true to your mission. So I think resilience, I think to me, and maybe some people would disagree, I think you need to be pretty able to relate to people and be authentic and genuine with people, and listen and care for people, because it is the people that make the difference. I mean, you can rent an office, you can buy a machine, you can put packaging around the products and stuff. But ultimately it’s the people that will make the difference to the organisation. In FMCG, it’s a fascinating sector, and in the UK you’ve got quite a high concentration in terms of customer base. You know, you’ve got Tesco, Sainsbury’s, Morrisons, ASDA, Ocado, Coop, Waitrose and then you’ve got the discounters. You’ve got quite a high concentration in terms of customer base. So that’s quite an interesting dynamic in terms of the way you relate to customers. From a supply chain point of view, there’s a lot of change because of climate change primarily and the lack of resilience in supply chains. So I think you need to be also quite assertive and clear, so you mustn’t get too flustered by some of the things you need to face into. So I don’t know if that answers your question, but this is what I’ve got so far. 

Kate:

No, that’s a useful insight. So you touched upon it earlier with the photocopier chats vs meeting on teams now. But I’m just wondering how the pandemic has impacted on your work. 

John:

I think it’s probably affected it in a number of ways, the ones that spring to mind are – it’s given us all more flexibility and control. You know, I live outside London, and the office is in Hackney in East London. So pre-pandemic I would travel for two hours into the office and two hours out of the office. And you know, when you’ve actually gone through the pandemic to the extent that we have, and you’ve got used to working at different locations, you know, you very much see that as only a good use of time when you’re going to a location that you need to do things face to face with people. So certainly it has provided us with much more… Culturally, I think it’s been much more empowering for people to be trusted and to manage their time better. I mean, for me, you know, if you get up at 5:30 every day and, you know, traipse across London and then finish work at 6:30 and traipse back – that’s quite a bit of time. And sometimes that’s worthwhile, but sometimes you could definitely do things from a different location and save that time and use it for higher productivity. I think it’s impacted us in terms of that. I think it’s also helped us to focus. I think the pandemic created quite a lot of change in terms of consumer behaviour, in terms of levels of uncertainty. So it helped us to focus on…  It helped you see priorities more clearly, which I think is quite true at a human level as well as a business level. And I think probably the final key point would be – we’ve actually found ourselves working better together, but valuing the time when you’re face to face much more. So, you know, we’re still very much running a hybrid model and people are working very, very well. But when you meet up, you know, the company employs 30 people, when you meet up together, it feels like a very high value thing because it’s not something that you’re doing all the time. So, you know, there’s been some real benefits in terms of flexibility, focus and perhaps valuing relationships. 

Kate:

What would you say then, are the sort of… What’s the best and worst aspects of the role from your perspective? Because it sounds like there’s loads of really rewarding elements to it with the things that you’re doing now as CEO and working for Cafédirect, that feels very much in line with your own values. But is there something that you sort of feel – Yeah, that’s the key thing I love about being in this job, and anything you feel like – Hhm, that’s the key thing I don’t look forward to in the job. 

John:

Isn’t it tough when you love being asked that one side of the question, but not the other. I love two things… I mean, I love lots of things about my job, but the two things probably are, because the organisation has a purpose, it’s, you know, so it’s here to improve the lives of smallholder farmers and part of that trying to change society and try to combat climate change, and influence other businesses and so on. I think that purpose gives you real meaning. I mean, we have a coffee producer and a tea producer on the board of directors, so you’re engaging with your purpose quite literally through the representation on the board, and you’re going to think about the decisions you make in the delivery of kind of social and environmental change, rather than in a traditional business you’re there to make money for your shareholders and you know, you can look at things in a much more binary way. So I think the first thing is the purpose really, it gives you real meaning, but it also gives you more intellectual challenge, I think, which is quite exciting and it feels like you’re pioneering rather than just doing a job like everybody else. And I think the other thing I love is in a small to medium enterprise, which, you know, Cafédirect is – you know everybody. So your connection to the team is pretty strong. You know, if you’re running a business with 300,000 employees, you’re probably not going to know them in the way that you can know 30. So I find that very rewarding, and you can therefore support people, and see how they’re challenged, and help them, and also enjoy the successes, and help them get through the difficult times. So I think that people bit matters. So yeah, it’s a great job. In terms of the worst aspects of the role… I think because I’m a bit more attuned nowadays to the importance of climate change, I don’t like the fact that although a lot of people would say – “Well, you know, you’re doing fantastically well, Cafédirect it’s doing really well”, it’s very important to continue to shine a light on its model and influence others to change. I guess what I don’t like is there’s a lot of things outside of our sphere of influence that need to change. You know, there’s a lot of system change required, there’s a lot of behaviours across the world that are quite unhelpful in the face of climate change. And I suppose what I don’t like is that I can’t get around some of those things. But yes, you know, there’s some significant change required in the way the different actors behave to enable the world to combat climate change in a timely manner, and in the role I have, I’m not able to do much more beyond the influence I can do as an organisation, but yet it concerns me I suppose. 

Kate:

It’s that frustration of seeing what the issues are, but not being able to act upon it. 

John:

Yeah, but then, you know, I know that, you know, we all need to say, you know what is in our control and what can we influence. And certainly some of the people I work with have reminded me – well, you know, making Cafédirect successful and showing there’s a different way of doing business is the focus, and we’ll achieve much from doing that. 

Kate:

I guess this kind of links nicely to that. I’m just wondering what you think the key challenges will be for Cafédirect and the fast moving consumer goods related work over the next few years? What are the sort of things on the horizon that it’s worth students kind of perhaps researching a bit more, or having a heads up about?

John:

In the immediate term, moving into an inflationary environment is a big, big deal. I mean, I think every student, every person will be feeling that and wondering where that goes and what it means for them. So I think that’s quite a big deal. I think that’s a key challenge in terms of, you know – how do you manage your supply chain? How do you make sure that you are fairly supporting a sustainable supply chain? But yet how do you have a business model that can be profitable and sustainable? How can you make sure you treat employees in a way that recognises and rewards their performance and their contribution, and provides them with a good life? And how can you make sure you get the right value in the marketplace without disadvantaging your brand? But also, you know, recognising probably that food and drink is underpriced at a macro level. And so I think the inflation piece is a big challenge at the moment. I think the other challenge is going to be climate change, and I think each time something gets in the way in terms of a pandemic or, you know, the inflation or the tragedy of the Ukraine crisis, you’ve got to be concerned that that stops you facing into the challenge of climate change. So I think that’s certainly, those are the two things that are big challenges. I think from a fast moving consumer goods point of view, I think in an inflationary environment, you’ve got to be still very focussed on your strategy and delivering your strategy, and investing in your brand. I think there’ll be plenty of businesses that will be looking at their cost base and making decisions that might make sense with a six month horizon, but might be damaging over a three to five year horizon or longer. So I do think being strategically clear about where your brand or business wants to be, and making sure resources are delivering against the different aspects of that plan is key, rather than reacting to some of the factors and losing sight of where you’re trying to get to. But it’s certainly a very dynamic environment in which we operate. 

Kate:

And any final bits of advice for students aspiring to senior leadership, or thinking about working in the FMCG sector? Anything that would be useful for them to get in terms of work experience, or ways to kind of stand out in an application? 

John:

Clearly, I would recommend it. I think it’s a very stimulating career working in consumer goods, in fast moving consumer goods and in marketing, or other functions. I guess what every student needs to do is to check a few things out to understand whether it’s for them or not. So I would have thought getting a workplace mentor, you know, some time with people in an industry is a good thing. I think in terms of standing out, I would have thought it’s all the normal things in terms of showing a high level of interest in application. The point that you touched on earlier on in the conversation is, I think, also understanding whether senior leadership suits you or not is a good thing, because a lot of the world is built on a very hierarchical approach. And so everybody thinks – “I’m going to start at base camp, and then move my way up the mountain”. One of the things you’re making me think about in this conversation is – that’s not for everybody. We don’t have to all compete to what we perceive to be the top of the mountain, we need to work our own mountain and enjoy it for what it is. You don’t have to be a senior leader to find what you want. 

Kate:

Yeah, I really agree with that. It’s kind of – find your own measure of success, rather than thinking you’ve got to kind of conform to societal expectations of that. And as you say, it sounds like the thing that really keeps you interested in your work is the people, and to be doing something that you care about rather than ‘hey, I’m the boss’ kind of thing. 

John:

Yeah, totally. I mean, you know, 30 people working together in an environment that makes them all do the best they can is wonderful, and I’m just one of those 30 people. I have a different job to some of them, but it doesn’t make it the most important job, it just makes it one of 30 jobs, and those people together can make it a big change, I think. Yeah, and as you say, it’s more about the people and the purpose, than it is about anything else. 

Kate:

Brilliant! Well, for more information about the careers we’ve mentioned today and Cafédirect, I’ll add some relevant links to the show notes and a link to the full transcript of today’s show. But John, thank you so much for taking time out to chat to us today. It’s really interesting to hear your perspective on the work that you do, and on the work that Cafédirect does, so thank you for taking time out to do this. 

John:

It’s a pleasure, Kate! Lovely to speak with you, and to think a little bit about what works and what doesn’t work in the careers we can all have.

Kate:

Thank you for joining us this week on ‘What Do You Actually Do?’. This episode was hosted by me, Kate Morris, edited by Stephen Furlong, and produced by both of us. If you love this podcast, spread the word and follow us. Are you eager to get more tips? Follow University of York Careers and Placements on YouTube, Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. All useful links are in this episode’s description. This has been produced at the University of York Careers and Placements. For more information visit york.ac.uk/careers