Listen to this and all the previous episodes.

Useful links:

• For more info about working at the BBC
• The public speaking skills group Lucy mentioned
• Creative industries job sector
• Journalism and publishing job sector
• Media and internet job sector
• Working in research
• National Council for the Training of Journalists
• News Associates journalism school

To hear more journalism and media related podcast stories:

• A day in the life of a BBC journalist
• Placement Year in a Political Think Tank
• Data Science
• From TV to Tech
• Making a portfolio career work
• Audience engagement editor at The Economist
• Commissioning editor for Cambridge University Press
• Film production and location management
• Historical film adviser
• Historical consultant for video games

Transcript:

Kate:

You’re listening to the ‘What do you actually do?’ podcast. Each week we want to bring you an inspiring interview, a useful tip or encouraging message to help you find your place in the professional world. Hello and welcome to this episode of ‘What Do You Actually Do?’. My name’s Kate Morris and I’ll be your host today. In today’s episode we’ll be talking about working in research and journalism. Today we’re joined by Lucy Gilder, who’s a journalism researcher for BBC News. So, Lucy, what do you actually do?

Lucy:

Hi! It’s great to be here. So I’m a journalism researcher in the data and analysis team at BBC News. So I specialise in home and social affairs. I research across topics such as crime, immigration, legal issues, education, social care. I work across several different teams at the BBC. The main one is the Explainers team, and they produce articles which explain key aspects of current news stories, phrases, questions that people have been searching for. So, for example, a recent piece we published was on what is the Queen’s Jubilee celebration, or what is a windfall tax. And then the other main theme I work for is the reality check team and they produce articles which are lies and various claims made by politicians. So we fact check those claims and they also work closely with the disinformation team to verify images and videos using open source intelligence techniques. And then another team I work for is the home and social affairs team as well. So I work across many different teams providing research for home and social affairs. 

Kate:

You’d be great on a pub quiz then, it sounds like… 

Lucy:

Oh yeah! 

Kate:

So there’s a lot to that. That sounds really, really interesting. Do you write the articles or does a journalist come to you and say – “look, I want to write a piece on this, can you research the topic and give me the key point”. How does it work? 

Lucy:

It’s a mixture of two of those elements. So I’d say mostly I’m just doing the research aspect, and then the more experienced journalist will actually write the article. Although I have written sections of articles myself. So the research can take many forms. So a lot of the time I’m writing briefs on certain topics, other times I’m responding to my ad hoc email requests from people who say – “Oh, do you have any data on knife crime statistics, or immigration statistics”. I might be asked to pull out key information from government policy documents, or have a call with a legal expert, which is what I did yesterday about the criminal court backlogs. But I’m also given the freedom potentially in the future to write articles by myself. So, this weekend I’m quite excited because I’m doing my first set of reports on a story that I pitched a couple of weeks ago. It’s about a tour that started in Cambridge, it’s called the Uncomfortable Cambridge Tour, and it’s quite unique in that it encourages debate and discussion about the controversial aspects of Cambridge’s history, such as the legacy of slavery and gender inequality. So I’m super excited to work on that in a few weeks. 

Kate:

So you must have to sometimes dig really deep if you’re doing that fact checking, especially into what politicians are saying, because I imagine sometimes the statistics about statistics about statistics, and it’s trying to get to the root of something. Is that really complex or do you have certain trusted sources where you can get to the kind of trusted, credible information? 

Lucy:

It can be complicated, because even when I’m using trusted sources – I take a lot of information from the Office for National Statistics – it can still be very, very complicated to get your head around. Because I don’t really have any formal statistical training. A lot of what I learned I picked up in my previous job as a research assistant at a think tank. But I also work quite closely with the head of statistics at the BBC who can also help me out. And I also take a lot of opportunities to just call experts in the field where I need support, because although I am the home and social affairs specialist, that’s a huge topic area, so I can’t be expected to be the expert in absolutely everything. So I draw on other people as a form of support as well. 

Kate:

So how has the pandemic impacted on your work? Because it sounds like a lot of what you’re doing is desk based, but there is also talking to different people. Has it made a difference, or can you do it really easily, remotely anyway? What’s been the impact, if any? 

Lucy:

I’ve only been in this role for three months. The first month I wasn’t able to go to the office. That was February, because we still weren’t really allowed, that was just the BBC policy to allow us to go back into the office. But since that time I have had a hybrid working setup. So I’m going into the office in London Monday and Tuesday, and then I get to work from home Wednesday and Thursday, and I have Fridays off because I work a four day week. So I guess that’s an impact, but for me personally that’s – I mean, I don’t want to say there’s been good impacts from the pandemic – but I personally quite like having that hybrid setup, because I really enjoy going into the office, I get to speak a lot with my senior colleagues, it’s a great learning opportunity, it’s great socialising opportunity as well. But it’s also nice not to commute to London from Cambridge. So yeah, I would say minimal impacts from the pandemic. I felt it much more in my previous job, because three months of my previous job I was working from home and that was really tough, because it was at the very start of the job, and I felt a bit anxious in the role, and I didn’t really get to make many friends until I actually started going in the office. 

Kate:

Was that the think tank? 

Lucy:

Yeah, that was at RAND Europe, the think tank. 

Kate:

So it sounds like you’ve had a core interest in research for quite a while. What was your starting point? Where did your interest in research and journalism come from? 

Lucy:

I’d say it really came about during my final year at York. So when I was younger I had a really strong interest in film and wanted to be a filmmaker. I mean, that interest still lingers, but it’s more in the sense that I just love going to the cinema and talking about film. So I found this part-time role as a research assistant working for a BOP consultancy in London. They had a project on behalf of the British Film Institute to look at inequalities in British film. And within that broad scope, I could choose my specific research project. So I decided to look at LGBT representation on and off screen in British film. And I just really loved that experience of interviewing loads of people, filmmakers for example, reading industry reports, extracting data and then just synthesising all of that information together in my own report. I just found that really satisfying and I got to present that report to people working at the BFI. And then from that point I pursued other research projects, obviously including the dissertation I did at York, the dissertation I did for a masters degree at Cambridge, but also other extracurricular research projects. And that led to my first full time job, which as mentioned before was RAND Europe. It’s a think tank based in Cambridge, and I was a research assistant helping with various projects in the home and social policy team. So that definitely helped me secure my current role at the BBC as a home and social affairs researcher. 

Kate:

That’s really interesting. So it sounds like it started off with that real personal passion and interest in film, and then it spun from there, linked with your degree and has led to various different job roles. I’m just wondering, you know, sticking with your degree for a moment, so did English and history. You also did a year abroad in the Netherlands at Radboud University. And, according to your LinkedIn profile, it looks like you spent time teaching English in China. I’m just wondering how these international experiences impacted your career? 

Lucy:

Yeah, it’s a good question. I would say both of those experiences, in the Netherlands and in Chengdu in China, had a profound impact on me personally and professionally. Mainly because they gave me so much self-confidence, because it taught me that I could adapt myself to new environments, I could make connections with people from very different backgrounds to my own. But most importantly, it showed me that I can cope in challenging situations. And all of these factors have helped massively when demonstrating the key competencies and skills required in job applications. I mean, culturally, the Netherlands is not a huge leap away from the UK, but I was only 19 at the time, so it did feel like quite a big decision. But China was much more challenging, but also wonderful. And in addition to the life lessons I’ve just discussed, I would say that living in China also increased my interest in learning more about different cultures, and it deepened my curiosity about what’s going on in the world – and I would say that that’s like a really essential attribute for journalistic career in particular. Then I would also add that while I was living in China, I joined this amazing organisation called Toastmasters International. I joined it mainly as a way to make friends because I was the only foreigner living in my town in Chengdu, so I did feel a bit alienated and my Chinese was not that great. So I joined this group just to make friends. But then it was wonderful, because it’s a group which is dedicated to developing public speaking skills. So that also helped the way I communicate, because every week we’d practise doing speeches – both prepared and impromptu speeches. And this, of course, is like a massively transferable skill for any job, but especially journalism, because in this type of role you have to convey complex ideas in an accessible and engaging manner. So they were probably the two most transformative events, I would say, living in those two countries. 

Kate:

That’s interesting how it connects to the work itself. So the interesting curiosity that you mentioned there, having the ability to communicate effectively with people from different backgrounds and convey different ideas. But the sort of the points around resilience and confidence, I imagine that’s really useful for getting the work in the first place, because you described earlier that you’re working with numerous different teams. So I’m guessing you have to kind of prioritise and request back sometimes. But also, if you’re pitching your own ideas, sometimes that will turn out well, like the one you recently just mentioned. But I’m sure other times, you know, it doesn’t go your way, like it would with anything. So being able to kind of pick yourself up from that and be like – okay, right, how can I do it better next time. I imagine those are really useful skills for the actual role that you’re doing, the profession that you’re doing, as well as the content, if that makes sense. 

Lucy:

Yeah, I would say so. Confidence is really important in this job, and I remember it’s something they asked me in the job interview, like – how would you feel about, you know, speaking openly and honestly to really senior journalists and producers. And actually they’re all super friendly and, you know, on a daily basis I’m talking to people that I’ve seen on BBC News before, which might seem a bit daunting, but the more you do it, the more you realise they’re just like ordinary friendly people, it feels quite normal. And as for resilience, I think, yeah, I definitely got that from living abroad and also studying at Cambridge as well. That was quite a big deal for me. At the time I didn’t think there’d be many people, you know, from my sort of background at Cambridge. But the fact that I adjusted to it well, and although the degree was very intense, that also showed me that I can cope in sometimes challenging situations and I can take that with me in the workplace as well. 

Kate:

So are there any other sort of personal strengths or qualities you’d say that you need to have in order to be both kind of happy and successful within research in journalism? We mentioned resilience, the ability to communicate. It sounds like you have a lot of actual research skills with the statistics, etc. Is there anything that you’d say – yeah, you need to have this if you want to kind of break into it. 

Lucy:

I think, as we already touched upon a bit before, being curious and being inquisitive I think are really essential because the topics I have to research are so wide ranging. So I could be asked to research, for example, something I’m doing this afternoon is understanding how the parole system works in England and Wales, I might look at how rape prosecutions work. So there’s so many different topics. I think it’s important that you can find an interest in loads of different subject matters. Because you’re a person who has very narrow interests and can get bored easily, I’d say it’s probably not the role for you. And I’d say the inquisitive aspect is important, because I think a key attribute of journalism is to dig deeper beyond the information you’re presented with, and know how to ask interesting questions about the data. Because, you know, so many people can sort of become amateur journalists these days, because we all have access to more or less the same information that is publicly available on the Internet. But I think the journalist’s job is to try and pull out interesting bits of data, and sort of turn that into a story. So I’d say that’s important. Another really important skill is the ability to be able to understand complex information. I don’t mean that in an arrogant way, like I’m a total genius who understands everything. Like it is a challenge, but I think it’s something I’ve definitely gotten better at, and that’s something that I also picked up a lot when I was a research, assistant at RAND Europe, because that was often involving reading a lot of complex policy reports, and sort of digesting that, and simplifying it in a report. And especially at the BBC, you know, it’s a public broadcast organisation for everyone, not just specialists. So you need to make what you’re researching accessible and engaging. And finally I would say persistence is pretty key as well, because sometimes you really need to push people and organisations to provide you with the information you’re looking for. So that can entail sending a lot of follow up emails saying – “oh, have you got that data set”, or making a lot of phone calls. So yeah, a combination of all of those things. And in terms of happiness, which I haven’t really touched upon, I’d say it’s important to speak honestly with your managers about the things that you’re interested in as well. Because I’m interested in what I’m researching, but, you know, don’t be afraid to pitch ideas that you’d like to work on, like something that you’re really passionate about. So just be open about wanting to share the stories that are important to you. 

Kate:

It sounds like there are loads of elements of the job that are really fascinating and play to your skills. What would you say is the sort of the top thing that you love about the job? And then also, perhaps, your least favourite part of the job, the bit that you sort of put up with to allow you to do the other things. 

Lucy:

The key thing that I like about my job is that every single day I get to research something totally new. So that’s the nature of the news. There are constantly new stories to be looking into. From someone who absolutely loves to learn, I was always a massive geek at school and at university. I loved studying, I loved exams. So in a way it kind of feels like a continuation of my education. I also love the freedom. Sorry, this is another thing that I like – is the freedom that the BBC provides to move around in different teams. I’m only a few months into the role, so I’ve not actually tried this yet. But there is an initiative called Hop Shoes. This is where anyone at the BBC can apply to do a few weeks work experience in a totally different department. So it’s not like when you apply to BBC you are tied to that one role, you’re quite free to just experiment and try other roles within the organisation. To answer the thing I don’t like about the job, I’d have to say it’s the commute to London. I’m based in Cambridge at the moment, and door to door that’s a two hour commute. I start at 8am, so that means I have to wake up around 5am. I’m not a morning person whatsoever, so I do find that quite difficult and I’m doing it two days in a row as well. But yeah, I am privileged in the sense that I have this hybrid set up, so I don’t have to do this every day. If I did, I would probably just move to London. 

Kate:

Hop Shoes sounds really cool, it’s such a great idea, because, you know, just even if you don’t end up going into that thing, to just understand it better and get what they do, that must be great to have that opportunity to test things out in that way. 

Lucy:

Yeah, I can’t wait to try it out, because as much as I’m really interested in journalism at the moment, I’ve also met a lot of people at the BBC who are both journalists and producers, so I’d definitely like to gain some experience with producing and see if I prefer that, or if I’d like to combine it with my role. 

Kate:

Yeah, that sounds like a really great opportunity. Just thinking about the worst bit, I totally get your point about commuting. I think we’ve all got used to working from home and just seen how much extra time we get in our lives as a result of that. Is the work stressful? Because do you ever worry like – oh, if I get this fact wrong, it could have massive consequences, we could get sued, or someone could be embarrassed from writing the wrong thing. Like, is there a pressure there, or do you feel you would actually, you feel so confident in what you’ve researched by the time that you pass it on, it’s not a sort of a particular concern. 

Lucy:

No, I definitely worry. I mean, I am a big worrier in general, so I do take extra extra care with checking, attention to detail, and double checking the statistics. But it doesn’t just stop with me because, you know, we have a very strong and robust quality assurance system at the BBC. So I’m never just the one writing it, and then it goes out there to millions of readers. Someone else, usually a senior journalist, will then sub edit whatever I’ve written in that piece, and they’ll go through that with a fine tooth comb. So there’s some reassurance there that even if, you know, one time I might slip up, then someone else can pick it up. But I hope, of course, that doesn’t happen. So, I mean, I wouldn’t say I get stressed about it, but it’s definitely something that I keep in mind that, you know, thousands upon millions of people might be reading what I’ve written. So it just made me pay more attention to detail. 

Kate:

That’s useful to know though, that because of that quality assurance process, it’s not all on your shoulders, that must be a relief. So what do you think would be the sort of key challenges for the journalism sector over the next few years? Because a lot is happening with the BBC, and so much is happening with all this fake news stuff and all the rest of it. For students thinking they might want to go into journalism, what should they be thinking about or researching to sort of prepare them for the sector? 

Lucy:

Yes, that’s a really good question. And it kind of relates to something I mentioned before about everyone now having the ability to become a kind of amateur journalist by having the same access to information as a professional journalist would. So I think it’s a question of really making your journalism stand out. And I mean that in the sense of finding interesting and engaging stories. So I’ve recently joined TikTok. I was always against it for some time, just because I already have so many apps on my phone that I’m addicted to, so I didn’t want another app taking up a lot of my time. But I think it’s actually going to be really useful, because I’m just finding all of these like niche and quirky stories that the BBC and other news organisations are interested in. Because that’s what they want to find, they want to find new and exciting ways to tell stories that haven’t been told before. So I think that’s important. And then another thing that new journalists should bear in mind is – something what you’ve already alluded to – is this rise of fake news. You know, because many people can become journalists, that’s a positive thing. But obviously the flip side of that is that, you know, people can spread fake news. And actually, my colleagues from RAND Europe just today published a report on the issue of what they’re calling truth decay. And they found that trust in the media in the West has been declining gradually over the past two decades because of this increased reliance on social media. And they suggest that the government should do more to invest in media literacy skills, you know, maybe it’s something we should learn in school. Another thing I think new journalists could pick up is how to become skilled in open source intelligence. So I recently did some training at the BBC to learn various methods to verify images and videos, some of which have come from the war in Ukraine. Learning how to use Google Maps and other resources to geo-locate images and videos. So I think having those skills in today’s media workplace would be really, really valuable. And actually, while I was at Cambridge, I did a similar course called the Digital Verification Corps, and they did similar things – just training us in how to be a bit more media-aware and recognise fake news stories. So perhaps students can find a course online to learn about that, to make them prepared. 

Kate:

Yeah, that sounds like really good advice, and I guess it links nicely with the kind of critical thinking skills that a lot of degree programmes will be helping students to develop. Any other advice for students thinking about trying to break into the career? Is there any particular type of work experience that you would recommend would give someone a good taster as to whether they might enjoy that type of work, and that could help them build up a bit of a profile for when they’re applying for jobs. 

Lucy:

I mean, it’s hard for me to speak from experience about that, because I didn’t actually have a lot of media experience before this job, because as I mentioned, my core experience was in research and I had this sort of like creative storytelling aspects from the work I did in film when I was a bit younger. But just based on conversations I’ve had with colleagues who did have media experience before joining the BBC, I would just say, if you can try and write for the student papers in York. I would say be active on social media, so TikTok, what I mentioned before, keep your eye out for potentially, you know, quirky, interesting new stories. Definitely get on Twitter, that’s a great way to find out what topics people are engaging with. We use Google Trends at the BBC, we use that to find out what questions people are searching about key new stories, and then we try and build articles around that. And I think York does have a mentor system as well, which I might have used when I was a student. So perhaps if you can find any alumni journalists on there, maybe ask them for advice. I’m very happy to talk to students as well. I mean, I’m not a qualified journalist, I’ve not been in the role long, so I’m not exactly an expert on this, but I can help where possible. As to work experience, I know the BBC has a traineeship scheme, I’m not sure if they do like short term work experiences, but I’m sure all of that information is available online. 

Kate:

I think it’s useful though, that your own pathway wasn’t directly from the traditional media work experience things. It really demonstrates that building up relevant skills, regardless of the context of those skills, that’s something that can help you stand out and be useful for getting into the sector. 

Lucy:

Yeah. And I would also say to students – just don’t panic too much if you don’t have a straightforward career path in mind. Because, you know, in the five years since I’ve graduated from York, I have been an English teacher, I did a Masters degree in Anthropology, I interned at Global Health Charity, I worked in policy research, and now I am finally working in an industry which I’m really interested in and hopefully will stay with for a long time. So yeah, it’s taken me five years to figure out what I want to do, and that’s totally fine, it doesn’t matter if it takes even longer than that. The important thing is just to build up your skills in the meantime and find out what you’re good at and, most importantly, what you enjoy. So I would say really use your time at York to do that, as much that’s important to obviously focus on your degree, and I would say, you know, try other extracurricular things that York has on offer. I certainly did a lot. I applied for the York Award shortly before I graduated, and I think that looks fantastic on a CV because it shows that you’ve really invested in building your skills and experiences. 

Kate:

It’s really brilliant advice, because just trying things out, doing things that interest you, building on your skills and working out what you do and don’t like, it can lead you sometimes down a kind of more of a wiggly path, but probably a more useful path, because you’re collecting different skills on the way. 

Lucy:

Yeah, absolutely. 

Kate:

Well, that’s brilliant! For more info about the careers we’ve mentioned today, I’ll put links to the BBC and other relevant links to the episode description, and a link to the full transcript of today’s show. But Lucy, thank you so much for talking to us today. It was really interesting. Your job sounds amazing. So important and really interesting, as you say, to every day find out some new stuff. It must be never never boring. 

Lucy:

Yes, I feel super privileged to be doing what I’m doing, and I’m really grateful for the time at York as well, for giving me those opportunities to develop my skills. So yeah, it’s been wonderful talking to you too, Kate. 

Kate:

Thanks for joining us this week on ‘What Do You Actually Do?’. This episode was hosted by myself, Kate Morris, and edited and produced by the Careers and Placements team. If you love this podcast, spread the word and subscribe. Are you eager to get more tips? Follow University of York Careers and Placements on YouTube, Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. All useful links are in this episode’s description. This has been produced at the University of York Careers and Placements. For more information, visit york.ac.uk/careers