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Something a bit different in this episode – Kate speaks to two Uni of York colleagues about imposter syndrome. What is it? Why does it happen? How can you deal with it? What support is out there for you?

In Careers we hear a lot of students mentioning impostor syndrome in relation to their studies and career planning. We also hear it from graduates – and it’s come up on the podcast a lot! – so we thought it was time we addressed it head on. Feeling like a fraud and doubting your skills and talents is really common, but don’t let it hold you back. In this episode Kate, Jo and Gemma give their top tips and personal experience about improving your wellbeing. 

Jo Hardy is Student Wellbeing Programme Manager and Gemma Cormican is a Mental Health Practitioner in the Open Door team.

Transcript

Kate 

My name is Kate Morris and I’ll be your host today in today’s special episode, we’ll be discussing Imposter syndrome and career confidence. Today we’re joined by by my University of York colleagues Jo Hardy, the student well-being programme manager, and Gemma Cormican, an Open Door practitioner so hi Jo. Hi Gemma, thank you. 

I think maybe if we start off actually exploring you know what is imposter syndrome and how might it affect students and graduates. So Gemma, would you like to kick off with that one. 

Gemma 

Absolutely. Imposter syndrome is quite an interesting topic, but it’s also very prevalent and especially in university settings. The way that I tend to describe it is a bit like Damocles’s sword from Greek mythology, and the idea that there is a sword hanging over your head that could drop at any minute. A lot of people with imposter syndrome walk around with the constant idea that they’re gonna be found out. They’re gonna be busted any minute somebody’s gonna find out that their place at university was a mistake. Somebody’s made an unkind error, or invited them, give them a place to university by mistake and that they’re gonna get kicked out. The same is true of people in employment when they’re applying for jobs when they’re looking at graduate programmes. There’s that real sense that I’ve done this by accident. This is a fluke. I don’t actually deserve that, and any minute they’re going to get busted. 

Kate 

It’s interesting because I think it can be a real blocker for people making decisions, when I see people in careers appointments if they’re really feeling anxious about the future and really feeling unsure about what they could do that is often linked with feeling that they can’t really do anything. They don’t know what they’re good at, and it stops you from getting started on exploring ideas and being open to possibilities so it can really, I guess as well as that sword hanging over you  it’s holding you back from actually moving forward, isn’t it? 

Gemma 

Oh absolutely, imposter syndrome it is very heavily linked with perfectionism, the kind of the shame associated with feeling like people might make a mistake or that they’re not good enough in some way, and they’re the cycle that that takes place. Through that internal post. And that absolutely comes out when you’re looking at careers and looking at what you might be good at looking at. Whether you think or more importantly, feel whether a job is for you, people can get into a real process and caught in a loop of discounting ideas and discounting career options because of that little grumbling that sits in the in the gut, somewhere between the rib cage and the belly button that says, oh, you, you might not be good enough at that. 

Jo 

I would concur with that absolutely. I mean, I’ve seen this from a staff perspective as well in in employment and throughout my career. Really, that people move themselves out of things. And I always you know I have done some mentoring of staff members and I always raise it in terms of it’s for somebody else to tell you that you are not suitable or that you don’t have the qualifications or experience or something like that, that is, that is their job to do so realistically, you know if you’re if you’re beginning to put boundaries on your expectation. If you’re beginning to sort of fence yourself in if you like, it’s really important to kind of understand what what, what those boundaries are that you’re imposing and just to understand that you know I have people say to me, Well, I’m not applying for that job because I’m not what they want. And it’s just like, well, no, that’s not. That’s not your job. To do your job is to apply for it and it’s their job to decide whether you are suitable or not and so to me I think it’s as well, as that that really personal feeling it’s also, you know, a really like, I mean really significant kind of blocker as you say Kate, for people feeling that they are not allowed to go and do things. 

Kate 

That’s so true, I’ve spoken to so many people, both undergrads postgrads graduates in jobs people senior in their jobs who’ve taught themselves out of things. It’s shocking, isn’t it? 

Jo 

Yeah, no it is. I mean I will just mention a marvellous friend of mine who has a sign on the notice board that says proceed until apprehended and I have to say as a kind of motto to live like that possibly not across all of your life, but in an employment setting in a kind of career setting actually, that has a lot of validity. It’s just absolutely proceed until someone tells you no. Actually, we don’t need you at this point because you know just stop. Stop getting in your own way. You know there are many things that will get in your way, but you don’t have to be one of them. 

Kate 

I really like that idea actually. Just removing responsibility for making that decision about whether you can or should do something. Yeah, just take that away. Just go for it and. 

Jo 

Yeah and I mean I have to say some of the more interesting career paths I’ve been on have just been you know, speculative and I thought, well, it’s not really down to me to be making big decisions at this point, I’ll, that’s for other people and then I will deal with what comes out of that you know, if and when I’m offered a position or something like that. But it’s not for me to be ruling myself out of things. 

Kate 

For both of you I guess how prevalent do you think imposter syndrome is? Are you generally sort of having a lot of meetings with students about this and Jo, is this something if you’re seeing staff as well as students? Is this something that affects a lot of people? 

Gemma 

Honestly, I’ve worked at the university in the Open door team for over 12 years now and I don’t think I’ve come across a student who doesn’t in one way shape or the other have to some degree a sense of imposter syndrome and I would challenge you if I’m honest to try and find somebody on campus just one person on campus who’s never had it never had a moment of self doubt never felt like they’re punching above their weight never felt like they are doing something that they haven’t earned. 

Jo 

I do think that a certain amount of that I mean, obviously Gemma is is talking about the kind of problematic end I think a little bit of kind of not self doubt but a little bit of sort of you know, just questioning about yourself and your abilities is actually a good and beneficial thing if it leads to positive outcomes. If it leads to thinking well, I should maybe do this. I should maybe get this experience. These qualifications I should work on this kind of thing. I yeah, in my experience many, many people have this and there are also particular sets of people who tend to have this as well. I don’t know whether Gemma has come across any data on you know who is particularly affected, but I do find that sometimes people who are less at home in a university environment and I think it’s beholden on the University really to help people move past that and understand what their what their possibilities might be. 

Kate 

Is it something that is getting worse? Do you think I’m just more conscious? I’ve noticed obviously with COVID there was certainly a time when students seemed more concerned about sort of in person meetings speaking out in lectures and seminars because it’s just it was something they just weren’t used to because for, you know for possibly quite a few years, they’ve been stuck in a bedroom with all the different lockdowns and stuff so that feeling of how you’re placed with other people, I’m just wondering, is it something that has got worse because of that or because of social media and worrying about how others will judge you and what you’re saying? Or is this something that is just that’s part of the human condition to, to be wracked with self doubt? 

Gemma 

Honestly, I think Imposter syndrome is something that we are that we experience from when we are young in one way or another, and I wouldn’t necessarily say that it’s that more people are struggling with it in response to COVID, but it’s certainly become more obvious for people who experience it when we were coming out of of lockdown when people started sitting in person exams for the first time after a long break. Students studying who, for example, didn’t sit their a level exams because they couldn’t, and then they came to university and having not had a level exams then started to think about ohh gosh, well have I actually earned my place here so I wouldn’t necessarily say that it’s more prevalent than it was, but I think people are becoming a lot more aware of it. 

Kate 

Yeah, I can imagine. It would be so tough to feel you know, do I deserve to be here? And is this my real grade and that kind of thing? Because as much as objectively someone might think well, you were really disadvantaged because you didn’t have normal lessons and all this other crazy stuff was going on I can understand the individual might feel well, I wasn’t under the same conditions as other people in the past so do my results still count and that kind of thing? 

Jo 

Can I pick up on a couple of things that you mentioned there, Kate. Just because I’m, I’m really quite interested in in the relationship that these play. I think what was lost in COVID from my perspective for staff and students was that the kind of context to it. So that you you basically didn’t have that moment where you’re sitting in a room with somebody else or coming out of an exam or something like that and there’s always that moment of shared sort of oh, that was awful, how was it for you? Or I didn’t understand that bit and hearing another five people go, yeah, that was really tricky, I didn’t get it either. Just because it was always kind of, you know, on on zoom calls and you were just kind of stuck with your own context, and I suppose it’s easy to think well, I was the only person who thought that or I was the only person who struggled with that, so I think there’s that kind of just that immediate peer context of lots of people going, oh, that was awful or I didn’t understand that or whatever, so I think that’s one point. But I think the other thing that you raised about social media is actually really important because social media is a curated existence. You know, very few people put on their day to day slog on their social media. You know what? It’s always a very curated and in in most cases positive spin on how people are functioning and what their lives look like. And it’s you know even though I think we all get that we all we all know that it’s it’s really tricky sometimes. And to just keep that thought in your mind when you’re looking at other people who seem to be doing so well, you know that whole compare and thing is a real problem with this when everyone else looks shiny and new and marvellous. 

Kate 

So it’s kind of a double whammy then of you haven’t got the social context and that collective experience of all going through you know, doubts and yeah, kind of overcome things together, but you’ve also got this fake reality where it looks like everyone’s feeling so much better and doing so much better. 

Jo 

Yeah, and and it’s really difficult I know that you know people listening to this will probably be thinking yes yeah, we kind of know this. But it’s really difficult to sort of I don’t know, feel it as well as know it. You know, we can intellectually know something but but whether you know we can quickly put in that, you know, sort of context of what we’re looking at is another thing entirely. 

Kate 

Do you guys think there’s any benefits to imposter syndrome because Gemma, from your perspective, we were chatting a little bit earlier about this idea of actually allowing yourself to feel things. So are there any benefits from that perspective? And obviously, Jo, a moment ago you were talking about some of the sort of ways it can help identify your training needs. So Gemma do you want to start with that. 

Gemma 

You’ve got to understand as a clinician, as a psychotherapist, when I talk about impostor syndrome, when I talk about it in terms of clinically and certainly at the level that I see impostor syndrome, that I would say no, there aren’t very many benefits to that at all, but certainly on a lower level on an everyday level of having a moment of you know, can I do this? Yeah, absolutely. I think it’s important for us all to kind of check in with ourselves and to notice you know, notice what our limits are, but to also push those limits to have a kind of negotiation with ourselves. 

Kate 

Almost yeah, I like that sort of thinking it through and acknowledging that you feel unsure about something or worried about something, but still finding a way to go for it. 

Jo 

And I think that keys into, you know, and one of the things that we were thinking about for this podcast, which was the idea of resilience. And it’s about, I suppose, it’s that moment where you, I mean, Gemma knows infinitely more about this, but for me it’s it’s that moment where you spot that you’re kind of putting a barrier down for yourself. you spot that you’re getting in your own way, kind of thing and it’s being able to respond to that in a relatively positive way I’m talking about being all all happy about the whole thing, but you know, you can respond positively to it in in a kind of problem solving kind of way. But obviously you know really reflecting what Gemma talks about where there comes a point where it’s entirely you know, unhelpful. And you know, then it’s it’s a really great idea to speak to someone about that and to get some help in how to deal with it. 

Kate 

So just on that idea of resilience, I see a lot of job adverts obviously, and we speak to lots of employers at careers and many graduate employers now specifically list resilience as one of their key attributes that they’re looking for in candidates. That’s so would you say resilience is the flip side to imposter syndrome, where you acknowledge it’s tough, but you find a way through that and you sort of don’t give up or as resilience as something distinct from countering imposter syndrome. Is it a thing in itself? 

Gemma 

I think the complicated answer to that is both. It can absolutely challenge imposter syndrome and it can be its own thing independently of imposter syndrome. One of the things that has bothered me a long time about people requiring resilience and talking about resilience is that resilience is not about being the best version of yourself. It’s not about keeping calm and carrying on. It’s not about ignoring the fact that the world is happening to you. It’s about noticing exactly those things, noticing that the world is happening around you and that you’re having a reaction to that. It’s OK to have feelings about what’s happening in the world around you, but it’s important to notice that your degree is tough and that actually there are times when we can be quite anxious about our education and about jobs in the future. Resilience is not about ignoring that stuff. It’s about noticing and bouncing back from it. It’s about being able to acknowledge the stuff that is going on with us internally. And to work through. It not about pretending it’s not happening. Which is like I said, one of the things that’s bothered me about people throwing around the word resilience for a long time but not really having a concept of what it is. So absolutely, when it comes to impostor syndrome, yeah, having a good sense of resilience and being able to notice your own imposters and imposter syndrome, being able to reassure yourself, being able to identify that this is imposter syndrome. And imposter syndrome. The thoughts that go on in our head. Edge, but we feel like an impostor, and not the same as reality. They don’t, they don’t match up. 

Kate 

I think that’s a good point. Actually, it’s called Imposter syndrome. The clues in the name. How can we tackle imposter syndrome then? Because it sounds like it can really impact people in both small ways and huge ways. So how can we tackle this? 

Jo 

Can I just jump in at this point Kate and just this kind of bridge is at the last bit of conversation that we have with lots of employers asking for resilient people. I have a background in workplace safety. And I will say that I would always go for if tere was an advert that said an employer provides and encourages and fosters a resilient workforce. I would far rather work for them than someone who just demanded all of their employees were resilient. It’s just to balance up the idea that employees are always supposed to be the ones who you know, go away, work on themselves, bounce back up are resilient to that kind of thing. I think it’s just balancing that with also, employers have a responsibility to provide a workplace that allows people to do that. That helps them do that and also doesn’t place them in a position where they are thrown back too much on their own personal resilience, you know. So I I just want to I I can’t fully articulate that. But I just think it’s important that we’re not placing every single thing in the workplace on employees just to be able to deal with it. You know that I just want to put alittle word in that employers are also responsible for this sort of thing. 

Kate 

I think that’s a really yeah. I think that’s a really important point, yeah, and a lot of people. A lot of students and graduates that I speak to now in careers appointments. Yeah, they’re actually very interested in the values of the organisation that they wanna work for, so it’s less about I wanna earn as much money as possible. And that might still be. Important to you, but it’s also about I wanna work for a company that I believe in and that kind of I can be myself. 

Jo 

Yeah yeah, and I mean we all know just how scary it is to see a job advert that says, Must have good sense of humour. I think we all know what’s probably sitting behind what needs good sense of humour, but, yes, sorry I didn’t mean to sort of take us off on a tangent, but I just yeah, I think it’s a balance. And I I don’t want people to feel that you know when they’re moving into the workforce that they are doing so you know and it’s it’s up to them to deal with with every single thing that employers can throw at them. You know that they have they’re going to have rights and protections in the workplace as well, so it’s up to employers to do that as well. 

Kate 

So part of tackling imposter syndrome then is accessing support and acknowledging it’s not just down to you to sort this out and make it work. It’s about the conditions that are suitable for any of us to be able to flourish in. 

Jo 

Yeah yeah, and I’ve read some really interesting articles about you know just making sure that it is imposter syndrome. You know, is there something about the situation and workplace that you’re in that is actually you know that there are some inequalities that are built into it or something like that, so it’s just I think it’s very easy for people especially when they’re beginning a career or they’re beginning at a particular workplace to think oh my goodness, this is me, but I I just want to sort of give everyone a little nudge to kind of have a breath and think well actually it might be me but also, is there something going on here that is about my employer or about this job that actually I need to speak to someone about and tackle because you know, this is the effect that it’s having. 

Kate 

I think that again, going back to COVID has been really important for recent grads, particularly those who are starting out remote working and not having that chance to just ask little questions to people and kind of pick up what’s expected of them by osmosis as you would in a regular office environment where you’ve got colleagues around you and you get the lay of the land and you understand what’s required. That’s been much harder when people have been stuck at home and they felt not like they don’t wanna bother someone by sending a full e-mail. 

Jo 

And I think it’s not for those individuals to get better at dealing with that, I think it’s about employers understanding that these are some of the limitations of the way that we’ve had to work, and the way that we now work. If we work in hybrid and to actually work to positively help individuals, you know they’re going to have to think about are there you know the inductions and orientations into workplaces that deals with all of that you know how are they going to make sure that people feel able to ask questions and things. So I I think it’s holding that idea of yes it may be a bit of imposter syndrome. It may well be something that you know an individual has to work on, but also it might be something about the employer that they are going to have to start working in a different way. 

Kate 

Gemma from your perspective, do you have any kind of advice for how students or graduates can start to tackle imposter syndrome within themself? If if it is more of a in their own headspace rather than some of these objective things, like asking for regular meetings and those kind of things. 

Gemma 

Absolutely, I mean. One of the biggest pieces of advice that I give my students is to give themselves time to learn when students arrive here. They’re here as students. They’re not expected to know everything, but often, imposter syndrome can leave you with a sense of being an imposter because you don’t know everything, and simply by giving yourself permission. And to be a student or a new starter at a new job or recognise what you don’t get the informal moments over the waiting for the kettle to boil in an office are opportunities for learning and times when you have chat with colleagues and if you start a job on zoom or working remotely you miss out on that kind of sense of being a team, and that was really informal opportunities and noticing and allowing yourself permission to be new at something and not know it all and to take your time to learn, there’s a reason, certainly with undergrads that the first year of your degree often doesn’t count towards your degree classification, because there is so much learning going on outside of the classroom learning to manage your own money and live with strangers. Find your way around a new city. A new campus. There’s so much going on and by giving yourself permission to actually be the person who doesn’t know can really help with imposter syndrome. Can really help kind of reduce. That anxiety that a simple reminder that you are you are learning and that it’s OK to learn. 

Kate 

You know that’s a really interesting way to look at it actually, because I mean particularly in an educational context. That’s the whole point of being here. You don’t know something that’s where you come to learn it, and I guess it’s the same with work, isn’t it that you are starting out you’re not recruited as an expert already, you’re there to train and develop and become an expert. 

Gemma 

Absolutely, and yet so many students, well, new employees get this real sense of being an impostor because they don’t know something, or because they have to ask questions and often get really embarrassed about feeling like they’re asking too many questions. There’s a, there’s a real sense of being an impostor that builds because they don’t know. 

Jo 

I was I was just gonna jump on that Gemma because I think you’re entirely right, I mean I think that the most confident statement I’ve ever heard anyone utter, either in a kind of study environment I have less experience directly with that, but also in the workplace most confident thing I think anyone can use is the phrase I’m sorry I don’t know because I don’t think anyone is expecting everyone to have absolute encyclopaedic knowledge, especially when they first start something I mean whether it’s a degree like Gemma’s, been talking about or actually in the workplace, and yeah, I think that really speaks of you know just how important it is to understand that you are at the beginning of the journey. You’re not supposed to land in a degree and just know everything that’s gonna be on there or land in a workplace and know about that, but unfortunately it’s kind of that’s what everyone’s signed up to get to a university. It has all been about you have to know everything you have to be able to give particular bits of information. And it’s really tricky. I think sometimes for us to say to people. Oh no, no, no that’s. OK, we don’t need that anymore because I I would imagine it’s slightly disorientating for people because they’re like they’re like I don’t know 14 years of their life have been all about that and all of a sudden we’re saying to people Oh no, no, that’s fine. It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t surprise me that people get disorientated with that change in in emphasis, really. 

Gemma 

The other thing that I would add on the back of what you just said Jo, is it is absolutely OK not to know, but it’s also important to recognise that we do have the skills to know and those skills might be a quick Google search, they might be, you know, the books in the library. They might also be asking a friend or a colleague, and it’s OK to use all the resources available to you to find out the answer. 

Kate 

I think from my perspective there are sort of some nice little small wins that people can have that can help tackle imposter syndrome. So, for example, CVs that’s something that like everybody, is like, oh, how can I improve my CV? What’s a CV? How does my CV compare to other people? But it can be a really useful experience for yourself to update your CV. Remind yourself of what you have achieved, you’ve got your qualifications. You’ve maybe had that part time job or you’ve been in that you’ve had that hobby, or you know, whatever it is. And particularly for graduates as well. Once you’ve got your degree regardless of the result, you’ve got that forever and no one can take that away from you. And it’s a really nice thing to be able to fall back and think how hard you worked for years and years to get that qualification and the skills that that took and that you guys say. Even if you don’t know the answer. You have actually developed these high level skills to be able to research  and distinguish between different types of sources and information, sake decisions, so you’ve gotta remember what you do have what you’ve got to offer here that’s not about that inner voice going Oh well, you didn’t do this, and it’s objectively you’ve achieved these things. 

Jo 

I think I think that’s a really good point actually. Is that objectivity and I love the idea. I think that’s a brilliant idea. I thought it was just me that did that. Just every now and again, sort of stick something on your CV and think, oh, actually yeah, that’s quite a list I have there, but I think it it is about battling that voice your your imposter voice with evidence. Yeah, now what is the evidence of? You know what? What are other people saying? When you ask about your capabilities and what objectively you know, what would someone think looking at your CV? Yeah, there’s that wonderful thing. That known as Occam’s razor which is basically where the simplest answer to a question is probably 9 times out of 10 and the correct one, and it’s either you have managed to fluke every single thing on your CV and no one has noticed yet in the 1st 25 years of your life or whatever, or actually there were things that you managed to achieve and I think that’s a cracking idea, but anything that brings in that sort of evidence, at least kind of analysis of what you you’ve achieved, rather than you know, I think that helps. I mean, I don’t know Gemma you’ll know more about this than anything but, you know, just that helps. Push back against that voice that sits there and tells you that actually you can’t do any of these things. If you can point to the five qualifications and see is that, say you can. That may help. 

Gemma 

Oh, absolutely, I think it’s it’s really important to be objective and to take a step back and look at your achievements and to recognise what you’ve achieved. And I am also aware that it’s not always easy when you’ve got your inner critic sort of barking at you, but actually this is a mistake and somebody’s made a mistake. One of the things that I often talk to students about is believe it or not, the film Matilda because it’s a great analogy that one day is, well, one day my analogy is going to expire because I think it was in the 90s when Matilda was made into a film, but don’t quote me on that. 

Jo 

Yeah, let’s not think about. It Gemma we’re not that old. 

Kate 

I think there’s a new version of that film coming out. 

Gemma 

Ah I’ve got a, I’ve got another 20 years of use ahead so yeah, I mean Matilda was was really great at demonstrating actually, the two teachers you’ve got a Miss Trunchbull, and you’ve got a Miss Honey and most people with Imposter syndrome, perfectionist traits they carry around that inner Miss Trunchbull all the time. And it’s her. It’s her barking orders saying you should have done this and you must do this. And you’re not good enough. I absolutely advocate that it’s really important to balance her out with a kinder, more compassionate Miss honey you know if we’ve only got Miss Trunchbull in there barking orders and telling us what we’ve not done or what we should do or what we have to do then whether we’ve had the most stressful day of our lives or nailed the hardest exam that we’ve ever done we’ve only got Miss Trunchbull to tell us off for it. It is absolutely vital that we have a choice in how we respond to ourselves and how we respond to the world. And if we’ve only got Miss Trunchbull kicking us while we’re down, then maybe it would be more appropriate to respond to whatever’s going on in that particular moment with a kind and more compassionate conversation with ourselves. 

Jo 

I think that’s brilliant. Gemma that is the best analogy I have heard for this ever, I think we should have just started with that. Basically 25 minutes on fighting your inner Miss Trunchbull 

Kate 

So there’s something really around self reflection then, so it’s really trying to be objective about the things that you feel less confident with and have doubts around, but also acknowledging the sort of personal successes that you’ve had whether those were big things or small things, and that might be, as you say getting through a really difficult exam. It might be if you’re an international student the stress involved in moving to another country and trying to communicate in a different language. Or it might be just even for a home student the stress of moving out of home coming to a new place or the scary scary thing of what you’re gonna do after your degree and having lots of people ask you about that. I’ve noticed that more and more degree programmes are kind of trying to integrate reflection as part of the assessment. So whether that’s through reflected diaries or evaluation forms, and often those things can feel like a bit of a pain in the backside because it’s not really obvious they’re not sort of academic like you’re quoting different resources and stuff. It’s about yourself and what you think. Once you do actually do it, it’s actually very useful to detail your thoughts and feelings so you can map it across and look back, because often when you’re coming to job interviews and having to write job applications, you’re going to be asked you know, when was the time that you overcame a challenge, or what did you gain from this experience. And then if you don’t record it or ever really step back and think about it, you can kind of forget about those things. It all blurs into one and you can forget. Oh yeah, that I did do that, didn’t I? And Oh yeah, that was quite tough. And how did I approach that and what else could I have done there? Why was that a good thing that I did that? At York we’ve got York Strengths. That helps you reflect on what your strengths and skills are objectively we’ve got the York Award to help you kind of really articulate the value of your experience at university, but most universities have similar kind of schemes to this to get you thinking about yeah, what have I got to offer? And in the same way that employers, some employers want resilience lots of employers really like self reflective candidates. That’s becoming more of a thing that you know they want people to know themselves and understand what their training needs are but also be able to give that self praise and acknowledge your own success as well 

Jo 

And I think I think that’s such a good point because if you think about I was just reflecting. And reflecting myself when you were talking there and and it was about you know if you think about the questions that you were asked at job interviews. You know the common questions that you get asked you get asked about you know how did you come back after a set back and how did you overcome a challenge? You know I’ve been asked questions about, you know what’s been your biggest failure in your career, that kind of thing, and if and if you think about it, that’s what employers want to know. They don’t you know it’s not as though you sit down in a in a job interview and someone says, have you ever been wrong? And you go no, I haven’t actually. And they go fantastic welcome. The company, they want someone who has and there’s some great, there’s some great Ted talks about this, but I remember I think it was Renee Brown on a Ted talk was basically saying, you know Ted talks are basically that, they’re all people who failed because they have then learned something through it. And have you know, they have at least tried. They have tried to do something they have, they have failed, that failure has been a teaching moment or a learning moment. And then they have you know we talk about resilience again they have bounced back from that. So I think in a weird way if you just think about the kind of things that employers ask you then that in itself is an indication that they’re not expecting this perfect individual who knows everything and has never done anything wrong. I think it’s accepting that that is part of life in general. Your career, your studies is there will be times when, when you can’t do something, and I think it’s how you respond to that. And and yeah, just picking up on you saying you know if you can reflect on that and you know, write it down cover it, then, then that is the good stuff that they want to hear. 

Kate 

OK, so we’ve thought about tackling imposter syndrome through being kind to yourself and acknowledging that it’s OK, yeah, to learn new things and not to automatically know everything from the beginning. We’ve said evidencing your achievements and kind of noticing when something’s hone well and you feel proud of yourself. This idea of also kind of learning from others and acknowledging that yeah, we all go through these things. What support sort of externally could students or graduates access or things that they could do to help build their confidence? Is there anything else that sort of externally could be useful to do? 

Gemma 

By externally, do you mean outside of the university? 

Kate 

Yes, outside I guess outside of your own head. 

Gemma 

Right, I mean certainly if anyone is struggling with imposter syndrome to the point where it’s affecting the daily functioning. I’d say I’d absolutely advocate speaking to someone about it, whether it is an employee support programme, whether it’s a university, mental health and psychological support service, whether it’s about finding some self-help resources online. Like Jo said, Ted talks Renee Brown  does some amazing books on shame and vulnerability of being. The cure to shame. Some really interesting kind of ad hoc stuff out there around self compassion… So I would, there’s so much out there that people can tap into, it doesn’t need to be formal support from the University Mental Health Service or an employer. Although absolutely tap into that support as well. Use the resources that you’ve got available. See talk to friends about it. Talk to family about it. I would absolutely guarantee that someone in your friendship circle feels exactly the same way and possibly even in your family as well. 

Kate 

Yeah, I would really agree with that. I think that often students and graduates as well have these resources, but can feel like ohh, I don’t know if that’s for me. The imposter syndrome can talk you out of accessing the resource. But career mentoring is becoming more of a thing, so it can be really useful because you might feel a bit embarrassed like ohh, I don’t wanna admit that I don’t know what I’m doing or that I’m worried, et cetera. But actually, people who’ve signed up to be a mentor want to help, and can often really relate to how you’re feeling, because that’s how they felt. And that’s why they now want to help other people in that position. 

Gemma 

Yeah, one of the biggest barriers actually to people accessing the help, certainly from our service or from friends, I hear every day I don’t want to be a burden, which again is that kind of imposter syndrome that  me having feelings and me talking to people would take their time and be a burden on their resources. That’s not how relationships work. Relationships are give and take. So my advice would be use the resources around you, whether it’s formal support and mentoring schemes and mental health service s or whether it be a friend or a family member. 

Jo 

I’m a mentor for staff members at the university. And I would also say absolutely everything that you said about mentoring that you know it’s a really useful way of understanding this sort of every, not everyone, but you know the feelings that you might have about how you perform and all that kind of business. Other people will have felt those as well, and it’s good to understand that, but I would also say as well that the mentors get something out of it as well, because I think everyone is always learning and as a mentor, I certainly don’t think that I sit on the top of the mountain and dispatch kind of you know, marvellous wisdom. I think it’s kind of having someone next to you who you feel you can talk to and who potentially is climbing the same mountain as you. To talk to the metaphor. It’s not as good as Miss Honey and Miss Trunchbull my metaphor, unfortunately. But it’s about, it’s not as though mentors have got it all worked out, but I think it’s really interesting conversations and connections to make and a little bit of kind of just cheerleading that you know you’ve got. And you know a few things that you can try out. You know, try asking about something. Try being vulnerable at that point and saying I don’t know this and can you tell me more about it you know just little steps that you can take so that when you do something like that and someone gives it a great response. You learn something, you get the information, it’s just little steps. On the road to actually, you know, silencing the Miss Trunchbull. 

Kate 

Yeah, I think mentoring it’s a nice, safe space to. talk through those worries and doubts, and I think particularly when you’re starting out in your career, actually to sort of have someone to chat to about what’s it really like in that job, what’s expected of you. t York? We’ve got York profiles and mentors, and that’s a scheme that you can kind of look at the different profiles and contact someone who’s a graduate from the university. For help, most universities have a system like that. If you’ve already graduated, I’ve found LinkedIn to be so helpful. I’ve spoken to so many graduates who have found LinkedIn to be incredibly supportive space where they can ask questions, have a quick zoom chat with somebody really getting insight into a different career area, and potentially it might lead to other things like work experience or finding out about a job that’s being advertised that maybe that you didn’t sort of spot yourself. And I think as you guys were sort of suggesting there having allies as well. Someone who’s just on your side and encouraging you even if they can’t give you a job or give you work experience. It’s someone who’s kind of want, you know, wants you to sort of succeed, and to feel good about the future. And I think, don’t overlook the university networks that you’ve got as well and friends that you’ve met and what they go on to do. Departmental contacts, if you’ve done work experience, it’s keeping in touch with the people that you met in that experience. Often they really wanna hear what you’re doing next and you know, see if there’s anything that they can help you with the for the future. And of course, at careers events as opportunities to meet different employers and graduates. So it is just taking that possibly it feels like a brave step, but that step to actually talk to people and have the conversations and generally, you’re gonna feel a lot better when you have done. 

Jo 

Yeah, and I think yeah, I think employers always respond to that as well because I think employers and managers just want to know what’s going on. They you know they they don’t want the total package, they don’t want the complete finished article, but I do think that well, I mean, this is just my experience. That that sort of managers and employees they just want to know that what they’ve got basically, they want to know that they’ve got someone who, if they’re feeling a little bit, you know underprepared or something like that is happy to basically say look, I’m really sorry I don’t have this at all. You’re going to have to run through this for me again or something like that. I think it it’s just knowing what you have, it’s so much more important. And then thinking what you have is indestructible and marvellous and knows everything and for what that’s worth, that’s just my experience. 

Kate 

Just to finish up, then let’s all give one top tip that we’d sort of leave people to take away, mull over, either in terms of building their confidence or kind of dealing with imposter syndrome. Who would like to go first with their top tip. 

Jo 

My top tip would be to go back to that first thing that I said is that basically it’s for other people to decide whether you are what they’re looking for or not. It’s not for you to try and somehow mind read what’s required or anything like. That it’s basically, don’t get in your own way with this, it’s other people’s responsibility to say oh thank you, you’re not what we’re looking for. It’s not for you to rule yourself out of the process altogether. 

Kate 

So you’ve got to be in it to win it. 

Jo 

Absolutely. I was trying to think of a really good way of putting that it didn’t sound like the National Lottery. But yeah, absolutely you know, there will be all sorts of times in your career where people go, no thanks. And they will be disappointing and you will have to display with these, coming back from things like that. But don’t be that person doing it to yourself. You know it’s for other people to tell you that, not you. 

Kate 

Gemma, what’s your top tip? 

Gemma

Honestly, it’s balance, everything is so much easier in life when we have balance. When we have work life balance. When we balance our Miss Trunchbull with Miss Honey when we balance our relationships with give and take so we absolutely are there to support friends and family. But actually we take the time and the space to share ourselves with them as well, and our difficulties with them as well, so that would be, that would be my top tip is balance, balance, balance, life, balance your feelings with your thoughts. 

Kate 

I love that, that’s a really nice one. My top tip would be, get out of your comfort zone. So actually just doing something, trying something out, going through that trial and error. It will help you kind of discover that actually, yeah, I can deal with this. It can give you more perspective. That it’s not the end of the world if something doesn’t work out. And if you apply for something and you don’t get it, OK, there’s other things you can apply for, and so I think looking at particularly if you’re still a student is there volunteering you can get involved in, well there is. We have lots of volunteering projects that you can get involved in, we’ve got lots of companies also advertise work experience opportunities. There’s student societies where you can take on a role and responsibility, and that counts as work experience as well. So it’s just looking for different ways to try something new. Challenge yourself and just give it a go and don’t overthink here. And if it doesn’t work out OK, that’s not a problem there, there’ll be other things. But if you sit in that space of as you said at the beginning, Gemma, with that kind of sword hanging over you, feeling like oh I better not try this. I better not do that things probably won’t change, so just giving it a go and accessing the support we’ve talked about, but get out of your comfort zone, just go for it. 

Jo 

I think that’s a brilliant idea mainly because, I’m reflecting as you’re talking, and all the more interesting moments of my life have been, you know when you do put yourself out of your comfort zone or some comfort zone and sometimes yes it can be really rather lively, but you know, alll the good stuff happens when you’re outside your comfort zone, I think. 

Gemma 

Kate, I am going to respond to you by making a confession and taking my own advice. When Jo suggested via you that I did this podcast, my response to Jo was well, the idea of it Jo terrifies me so I should probably do it. 

Kate 

Oh, you’ve done it. You can say you’re an official podcaster now and you’re brilliant. You gave absolutely wonderful advice and really kind and supportive, and it’s so useful for me to have someone who’s a professional in the sort of the psychotherapy and the well-being side of things. Obviously I know about the career stuff, but it’s that more health and the more serious issues that you’re dealing with, it’s really fantastic. I’m so grateful to both of you taking the time out to do this today. 

Jo 

No it’s been great to talk about it actually, I hope it’s well received because I do think if you can kind of keep your inner Miss Trunchbull in the cupboard it is a lovely moment when you just kind of you take that step towards doing something. And I and and I think. As well, Miss Trunchbull gets smaller, the more you do it. I’m really torturing this metaphor now, you end up with a tiny Trunchbull. 

Gemma 

There’s a reason Jo this metaphor has worked for me for 20 years. But just so you know Jo, she doesn’t go in the cupboard, we all know she goes in the chokey 

Jo

Ohh she goes in the chokey. I let myself down, my knowledge of Roald Dahl is better than this.