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What does an investigative journalist actually do? Sam Bright studied History at York while running a politics blog in his spare time. He’s now the UK Deputy Editor at DeSmog and has written two books. Sam tells Kate what his day looks like and shares his tips for students interested in this kind of work.
Sam’s bio:
Sam Bright is a journalist and author who has written two books: Fortress London and Bullingdon Club Britain. He has worked for the BBC and has been published by the New York Times, the New Statesman, the Big Issue, VICE, the Spectator, the Yorkshire Post and others.
For more info about Sam and his publications:
For more info about working in the media sector:
For info about the NCTJ:
For more info about working at the BBC:
Transcript:
Kate:
You’re listening to the ‘What do you actually do?’ podcast. Each week we want to bring you an inspiring interview, a useful tip or encouraging message to help you find your place in the professional world.
Hello and welcome to this episode of ‘What do you actually do?’, my name is Kate Morris, and I’ll be your host today. In today’s episode we’ll be talking about working in journalism and writing. Today we’re joined by Sam Bright, who’s the UK deputy editor of DeSmog, investigative journalist and writer who’s been published with the BBC, New York Times, The Big Issue, New Statesman, and authored books on Bullington Club and Fortress London. So Sam, that’s a lot of stuff. What do you actually do?
Sam:
I write a lot, which is, yeah, the top line, really. A whole range of things really. I found that breaking into the media, you’ve got to sort of have quite a diverse skill set. And yeah, over the past ten years or so, I guess I’ve done a number of things, as you say, I’ve worked for the BBC, so a fair amount of broadcasting. But now my day-to-day job really focuses on investigative journalism, so finding stuff out that bad actors don’t want you to know about. Yeah, and also editing articles and managing a team of journalists at DeSmog. I’m sure my next job will take me into something new entirely.
Kate:
So it’s something, it sounds like then – it’s the type of career where you’re not staying in one lane. You are learning new skills, picking up different types of roles, and evolving as you go along.
Sam:
Yeah, for sure, I mean, obviously I can only really speak to my experience, but I did find that increasingly in journalism – and certainly if any of your listeners are sort of dabbling in this, and taking their first steps, and looking at the opportunities out there – journalism is a field that is constantly evolving, is constantly changing. There are new outlets springing up all the time. Unfortunately, there are also other outlets laying staff off. So to actually stay in one position for any amount of time – it’s tricky at the minute. I know plenty of people who started with me at the BBC after I graduated… You know, I did BBC work experience, so I know people who started out at that time with me who stayed at the BBC for that amount of time, for sure, and people who stay at big publications for a while. But I’d say typically what tends to happen when you break into the industry now, is that you do get a range of sort of project work, of freelance gigs that you can do for, either, you know, just a single article, or for three or six months at a time, and then you have to move on quite quickly to something else and gain a portfolio of work that then can cement you in the industry, and hopefully get you a full time position if that’s, you know, the route that you choose.
Kate:
In your current role, then, what’s a typical day for you? Are you… Do you work in an office? Are you fully remote? Are you, kind of, do you come up with an idea of something to investigate, and you travel to different countries looking into it. How does it work?
Sam:
So, a range of different things. I have to say that I’ve only just started at DeSmog, so I’m still very much getting my feet under the table and figuring it out myself. But from what I know during these early stages, we work in an office one day a week on a Monday, so that’s in central London in a sort of flexible office working space, we rent a room out in there. And then the other four days a week we all work from home. And DeSmog is an international operation, so it was started across the Atlantic in North America, and we’ve got editors in the United States, in Canada, and in the UK, and freelancers, you know, across all those jurisdictions and in the EU. So it’s very much, you know, working across different time zones. You know, we have a global editors call, and everybody puts their heads together from the various different parts of the world and tries to coordinate, and what they’re doing. In terms of me, you know, the days are quite varied actually. So, one day I could be editing an article that one of our staff writers has prepared, has researched, And you go through various different stages of that editing process. You know, it can be the first look at a draft of an article where you really get into the nuts and bolts of whether the story stands up, whether the facts are right. And then later down the line you’ve really got to get into how this is written, and whether we’re conveying what we’re trying to say in the clearest way. We’ve pitched to mainstream media partners as well, that can be involved in the editing process. You know, approaching the Times or the Guardian, etcetera, and asking if they’d like to partner on a story. I write myself, so if I see an idea, you know, I’ll pitch it to my editor and she’ll say yay or nay, and if it’s a yay, then I’ll crack on and write that myself, you know. And then there’s various different admin bits, you know, HR related. Make sure that everyone’s happy, that everyone’s, you know, singing off the same hymn sheet. And the project work that sort of goes on in the background, the long-term investigations, that they’re progressing well and making sure that people have time to check in and feedback their concerns.
Kate:
I mean, I imagine if you’re investigating something that would be quite an immersive task going into the real detail of something and really doing all your fact checking. Is that quite a challenge then to, sort of, have that really minute detail, immersive kind of thinking, but at the same time still trying to do all that other stuff that you just mentioned.
Sam:
Oh God, yeah, that is a real challenge, especially when your emails build up in the background while you’re spending half a day or so, you know, looking into the various conflicts of interest regarding an oil firm, for example. I guess I’m fairly used to that and it’s about, as best as possible, compartmentalising your time and trying not to get too overwhelmed or stressed by background tasks building up while you’re researching something. But it can be easier said than done. A lot of investigative journalism involves digging into the detail of something, because you’ve sniffed out a story, you’ve got a hunch as to whether something will pay off, and then you do your ground work, you do two or three hours, you sink a load of time into it, and then it turns out that the story isn’t quite what you think it was. And so you’ve had all that work built up in the background for nothing – that is a tricky thing. But you know, I’m someone who does really love, sort of… A lot of my work basically just involves online stalking. So anybody who’s stalked anybody on a social media platform – my job is actually very, very similar to that. But instead of with people, although occasionally with people, I’m stalking, sort of, companies and their wrongdoings. So I think that probably puts it into perspective a bit better for people.
Kate:
That situation then, of doing a lot of work and then there’s no pay off, I’m guessing if you’re employed, and your editor team is supporting you to do that, and you’re getting paid to do it regardless – that’s less painful than if you’re freelance and you’re trying to investigate to then be able to pitch that story to media outlets. Is that an issue within the industry?
Sam:
Yeah, hugely, hugely. And yeah, I’d say that bigger publications unfortunately, just because of their nature – and by bigger publications I mean generally the newspapers – aren’t really set up to support that form of investigative journalism, because you’ll get paid pretty much a fixed amount by a lot of newspapers, regardless of how much time you’ve put into it and the opportunities for negotiating are quite small. So yeah, that is a real problem. And as a result all you get is, you know, reactive news pieces, click bait that’s just bouncing off the latest item that’s at the top of the news, rather than looking into systemic wrongdoing, corruption and, you know, malpractice, you know, both in politics and in business. So that’s, yeah, that’s definitely a problem. You know, there are outlets out there that sort of, you know – DeSmog is one of them, but also the Bureau of Investigative Journalism and other generally grant funded organisations, Open Democracy is good as well – that do try to foster investigative journalism. But unfortunately it’s few and far between.
Kate:
With your books that you’ve written then, was that a similar process in terms of, you pitched the ideas to publishing houses and they kind of said – “Yeah, here’s some cash go off and do it.” Or did you write the books kind of in your own time and then pitch them to publishing? Or did you self-publish them?
Sam:
Yeah, it’s an interesting one. So my first book is called ‘Fortress London: Why We Need to Save the Country from its Capital’. I sort of had an idea for it while I was working at an organisation for publication down in London, and then I’d quit and I’d come back up north and I sort of, I was fuming about the role of London in our national life and the fact that it’s so difficult to sustain employment down there if you come from a different region or, you know, you come from a disadvantaged background. And so I sort of wrote an initial idea down, sort of, 5000 words in rage after finishing that job, because I had a bit of spare time. And then just, I guess fortuitously someone who I used to work with at the BBC, one of the editors, had been contacted by her commissioning editor, who’d commissioned a book that she had written previously. He joined a new publishing house and was looking for northern writers specifically to pitch ideas, and I’d obviously got one that I prepared earlier with the pitch that I’d written. So I just chucked it in his direction having had, you know, sort of a reference from this BBC editor saying, you know – “look at Sam, it’s worth looking at Sam’s ideas, he’s a good writer, and I can vouch for him”. And that process, you know, that pitching process took a while, it took a bit of pestering. I sent the initial draft, and then it sort of went quiet for a while, and that can often be the case, not just with publishing, but with journalism as well. It is very busy and they struggle to get back to people promptly.
I remember I was on the way back from Cornwall, driving back to London with my girlfriend, and we were listening to a podcast where two authors were chatting away about their books. And I just, I had that moment where I was like – I would love to be in this position and I’ve pitched an idea to a commission editor, and I haven’t bugged him in a while. And so the first thing that I do when I get back to London is that I’m going to pester him. It actually turns out that he loved the idea, he just hadn’t had the time to respond to me. From then on, you know, he suggested some edits for me to do, and it evolved quite quickly into a stage where an offer was made, and then after that point it’s very much, you know, you’ve got to fit it in. You get to negotiate the amount of time that you’re allowed to submit the book. I was given 12 months and so the task was to fit the research and the writing around my work, and that involved a day a week of research at the weekends. And then I took two months off – a month of paid, a month of unpaid leave – at the job that I was in, to just bash the book out. And yeah, fortunately it’s alive and in the world.
Kate:
That must be an amazing feeling to kind of actually have something tangible for all that hard work.
Sam:
Yeah, it’s weird because it is very much like a part of you. And I’d say that I recommend to everybody to write, because I think that writing for me is not always like – and it sounds sort of hopelessly profound – but it’s not always the process of putting my ideas down on paper. I literally write in order to stimulate my thoughts, and that can be on anything, you know, for me, it’s about ranting about the government, but you know, it can be about your own, whatever you’re experiencing in your own life. Yeah, I would really recommend it. And having that, which is basically, you know, hours and hours worth of me piling my thoughts and developing my thoughts on a particular topic into a project and for it to be something tangible is, yeah, it’s incredibly fulfilling.
Kate:
So what was your starting point then? Where did your interest in investigative writing come from?
Sam:
So within certain outlets, and particularly when I started at the BBC… You know, the BBC is one of the few – or at least it was when I was working there – one of the few media outlets where it did give you the space to investigate things and there was a demand for digging into interesting subjects. So yeah, I think I really developed my tools there. And then really it’s been the process of getting my teeth into certain stories and having the opportunity to cover them, because there’s a ton of work actually taking place, particularly in broadcasters, that doesn’t get on air because there just isn’t enough time to put those stories on air. And I actually I left the BBC in 2019 and went to work in independent media, which I work in currently, and that’s completely the opposite. You get a lot of scope to produce material and you can become senior quite quickly, and so the skills that I developed as an investigative journalist at the BBC, which didn’t always land me a story, I then managed to apply to sort of my new horizons in independent media, where you get a lot of opportunities to write quite frequently. And then along came the pandemic, and I was nosing around the contracts that the government had awarded for personal protective equipment, and basically found quite quickly that a lot was going wrong and sort of staked my claim to that story, and ended up publishing about 50 or more stories on procurement during the pandemic. So yeah, it’s a constant process of, you know, you’ve got to develop your skills at the outset, but then actually begin being able to apply them in a meaningful way. As I say, that’s quite tricky in the current media landscape, but I’ve been fortunate that I’ve been able to, and there’s been a demand for the sort of stories that I’ve been doing over the past few years and the subjects I’ve been interested in, particularly wrongdoing at the highest levels of government. Lots of other people and lots of people who run media outlets have been interested in it as well, so I’ve managed to do relatively well at it.
Kate:
Thinking back to your early days then, you set up an open platform political blog called ‘Backbench’ when you were a student. How did that impact on your career?
Sam:
So that’s probably the biggest factor in me becoming a journalist. Yeah, I owe it all to that decision I made in boredom between A-levels and university – nerdy, bold decision. You know, most people have bought a new video game, but you know, I didn’t want to do that. And honestly, I had no idea how it would work, I didn’t have any backing to do it. I remember I commissioned a logo from a local designer in Huddersfield, for like £50 or something, I built the site using free web design tools, you know, I had no idea how to code or anything like that. And then just set up a profile on Twitter for Backbench, and just followed a load of people who looked like they were young and interested in politics. Yeah, and it just turned out that there was a demand, that there were lots of people like me who were sort of starting out in their journey as young writers as, you know, angry about various things, curious about various things, and wanted to put their name to online articles, and then yeah, we sort of really reaped the rewards of that. You know, it was challenging to the same extent, because I soon found, you know, within six months, that we were getting one or two stories a day that we’d have to publish, and I hadn’t built the infrastructure to support the project. I was the only editor, so I had to, alongside university work, and going to a new city, and making new friends, I was, you know, trying to edit the articles, do the social media, you know, do any sort of like graphics that we wanted to put on social media, etcetera. And yeah, it was a challenge, but it honed my ability to write well, and particularly the pressure of knowing that I was editing people’s work, who were, say, studying PPE at Oxford and were in their third year, and I was in my first year of a completely different degree. I was quite acutely aware of needing to be respected in their eyes as someone who could write and could edit well, so that put a lot of pressure on me to develop my writing and my editing skills. And yeah, I think it showed initiative, I’d like to say, and I think having spoken to the person who recruited me for the BBC Work Experience scheme, it was the biggest factor in them picking me over the thousands of other candidates that they had to choose from. So it definitely set my career off on the right path.
Kate:
I think when I talk to students who are interested in journalism, one of the really tricky things is getting work experience. So I think that’s a really good idea that you had there – to just create your own experience. Because you can get caught in that loop, can’t you. Like, how do you get experience without experience? Because you want to have something to impress potential employers, to sort of showcase your abilities. How do you do that if you don’t have any experience already? So to do something for yourself is a really good solution to that problem.
Sam:
Yeah, for sure, and I think it makes you stand out because there are lots of people who get, and, you know, this isn’t a slight on these work experience opportunities, because I went into that path as well eventually, but lots of people have had work experience at the BBC or The Times, or wherever, you know, Channel 4, ITV. But actually, setting up your own publication and developing the skills associated with that, really jumps out to people, I think, because actually so few people do it.
Kate:
Interestingly, it sounds like it’s been good training for what you’re doing now as well – that multitasking, that ability to edit, review, assess other people’s work, do your own investigations and writing, but at the same time as managing, doing your actual history degree, living your life, probably having a part time job.. Like, that hustle, if you like, that’s kind of sounds like at the start, when you were saying what a typical day is now and having to balance all those different things, it’s like – actually, that probably was a really good training ground, as well as to give you an insight into, ‘yeah, I can cope with this.’ Because I think some people would find that absolutely overwhelming and stressful, so to know that you can do that and enjoy it, it was probably quite a useful experience in itself.
Sam:
You know, thinking about it, what I was doing back then ten years ago probably isn’t that different to my job now. Just you know, I’m getting paid to do it. Yeah, I’m very much, like, responding to pieces that come in to me, editing them, managing writers and writing stuff myself, you know, posting stuff on social media. Like, it’s all very much swimming in the same pool, and yeah, it gave me a great grounding and great confidence to know, that I can do it. And also, like I say, lots of the legacy media outlets, and even the BBC now, are suffering financially. Certainly for me, one of the opportunities that I found is in the new projects that are springing up. You know, I’ve worked for two start up media publications in the past, for like 4 years. And I think one of the main reasons they hired me and also one of the main reasons why I knew I wanted to go into those positions, was because what I’d done at Backbench, and they knew I had the diverse skill set in terms of building websites and managing a full diversity of roles, and not just being pigeonholed to one. And I think, like I say, in a media landscape where opportunities can change quickly, you need to stay fleet footed in many ways and have lots of strings to your bow. I mean, for example, I still think that I could go and do radio or TV again at some point, should the circumstances at the BBC change, and that’s a nice sort of reassurance in many ways in an industry that isn’t at the peak of its powers.
Kate:
Yeah, I think you’re right. Having that adaptability, it’s actually important in so many different professions, but journalism itself is such an interesting one, with the transition that it’s going through at the moment. Was there anything from your History degree that sort of helped confirm to you that you wanted to go down the sort of writing and investigative journalism route, or was it more about what you were doing (Backbench, that sort of stuff) in your personal time, that was the thing that helped to shape your career plans?
Sam:
I think it was definitely the degree as well. I think it, in many ways, substantiated my passion for politics, and writing, and honed my skills on that front. I think, as well, actually doing a History degree in many ways was perfect preparation for being an investigative journalist, because the process of doing history is digging stuff up about the past that other people haven’t spotted yet. And all I’m doing as an investigative journalist is doing that in the present day. So actually, it’s a remarkably similar skills set. You know, if you sell it to people, they wouldn’t realise it, but it’s helped me in a lot of ways in my future career, on top of, you know, just basic political knowledge and curiosity for the world, that sort of breadth of understanding of past political circumstances that really informs the work that you do in the present day.
Kate:
So you’ve mentioned quite a lot of skills there with research curiosity, the sort of political understanding. Are there any other, kind of, more sort of personal strength or qualities you’d say you need to have to be sort of, not just successful, but happy having a career as a writer and investigative journalist?
Sam:
That’s a really good question. Although it’s not necessarily the healthiest quality at times, I think I’ve definitely benefited from being an obsessive of like.. Especially an investigative journalist, you can go through a constant process, like I said earlier, of being rebutted of trying to sniff out a story, going down a particular rabbit hole, and not finding anything there, and you’ve got to really be laser focused and, like I say, obsessive about getting to the bottom of the story and not giving it up. And so that, like I say, that’s not necessarily a great quality at times, because being obsessive can also cause you to become too obsessed to try and… You know, a big thing for me is about finding that balance in life, that distracts you from the latest investigative projects, because it can become all-consuming. And journalism is immensely competitive, you know, everybody is competing for stories, everybody wants to get the scoop, everybody wants to get thousands of Twitter followers, etc. And it can be quite an overwhelming experience, especially when the industry is as it currently is and has been for the whole of time, is dominated by people from certain social backgrounds. So I’d say you’ve got to be robust as well. Going down to do work experience in London after graduating, you know, I’ve been to London less than half a dozen times by the time I spent two weeks down in new Broadcasting House, literally W1A, you know, the epicentre of Regent Street in the heart of central London, and was working on a the Victoria Derbyshire program, which sadly doesn’t exist anymore, but is a flagship current affairs TV programme. And so, I think you’ve got to be robust enough to cope with those quite different, challenging, changing circumstances. And the ability to speak to people is essential as a journalist, you know, you’ve got to be able to often get people to tell you things that, when you first get on the phone with them, they’re not quite that keen to say. And there are lots of ethical considerations in journalism, you know, you’ve got people who’ve experienced, you know… You’re telling the stories of people who often have experienced horrific things and you’ve got to balance the benefit to the world of getting their story out, but also not pressuring that person too much if they don’t want to tell their story. And you know, that’s a challenging thing as well. I think you’ve got to be quite morally conscious of what you’re trying to achieve by going into the profession, and not letting your spirit of competitiveness, of you trying to win this game – you’re not going to let that override those ethical considerations that we all should have as a journalist, in terms of treating the facts properly and treating the people who you’re speaking to with compassion and kindness, and basic desire not to mislead people and to expose wrongdoing, rather than to punish the little guy, or at least that’s my attitude on how journalism should be conducted. I’m sure that other people at other publications may disagree.
Kate:
I guess that personal integrity really comes into it there though, because if you’re on your own investigating a story, you haven’t got someone double checking that you’re being fair and kind to somebody, that you’re not putting them under pressure to speak and making them sort of do something they don’t want to do. It is down to you making that moral judgement in that moment and, as you’re hinting, I’m sure there are people who don’t have that same level of integrity.
Sam:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, you can sound quite pious about it – ‘I have integrity and other people don’t.’ I actually think that, even at publications that you think, you know, perhaps don’t have the best ethics, I’d say the majority of journalists, particularly junior journalists who work there, have gone into the industry for the right reasons, and are using that experience as a stepping stone to something else and to, you know, deliver the sort of journalism that they imagined when they first went into the industry. I think the problem is that once you get within those organisations, they’re often the best paying, the opportunities elsewhere are quite limited, and so you can end up stuck there, which is sad. And, you know, it’s really a call for anybody who believes that journalism with integrity should be supported in modern Britain to go and do it, because that’s the only way that we’re going to get those people out of those publications and, you know, into better news organisations. But yeah, I mean, I think fundamentally my sense of integrity and, you know, the more clarity that I try to bring to my journalism has actually made me a really, you know, a good one. Unfortunately, I think there’s a deficit of journalists who’ve exposed really high level wrongdoing over recent years, and I’ve kind of seen a gap there and I’ve filled it, and fortunately it’s conformed to the sort of society that I think we should be trying to create.
Kate:
For you personally then, what would you say is the thing that you really love about the job and what’s the worst bit of the job?
Sam:
I think the best thing is that rush of getting a really groundbreaking story out there, you know, whether that’s interviewing someone about something shocking or really important that hasn’t been published before, or whether it’s, you know, finding something out about a politician or a business. Yeah, that moment when the publish button is hit and you see it online, I think that’s a really validating moment. The worst thing about it… Honestly, I enjoy pretty much all of it, I can’t think of much that I don’t like. I guess the thing is, it’s not actually the process of navigating the job, I guess it’s the part of it – is the relentlessness of it. Particularly if you work in news organisations, so daily news organisations, as I have in the past, and particularly small ones, where they’re not particularly well resourced, is that there’s no let up. You know, you’re writing up to, in some cases, 10-20 stories a day if you’re working for some publications. You’re absolutely shattered by seven-eight o’clock, and then you’ve got to do it all again at eight o’clock the following day, and that can really be incredibly draining. And staying on top of all the bad news in the world, which unfortunately is the main stuff that people want to read about. You know, ‘what bleeds, leads’ – is the famous phrase from the media industry, and you know, that holds true even today. So you’ve got to absorb a lot of bad news and be able to cope with that emotional pressure. But then just the basic thing of trying to navigate this industry, and trying to like put food on the table while, you know, doing a job that you really enjoy, not being able to give it up, that’s quite tough in current circumstances as well. But you know, I’ve been pretty fortunate, especially in recent years.
Kate:
For students or recent grads who are thinking about, you know, maybe pursuing this as a career, what do you think are the sort of key challenges or issues that are coming up in the future that is worth them being aware of, or perhaps researching a little bit more, having a think about if it’s something they want to be working with?
Sam:
It’s something that has relevance to what I’ve done in the recent past actually, is that, I think, don’t underestimate the extent to which social media has completely revolutionised journalism. I mean, it’s revolutionary. The digital world has revolutionised most things, but particularly journalism. So like 20-30 years ago, I don’t think there would have been a chance of me getting into journalism and doing the things that I’ve done. You know this upper working class lad from the countryside in Huddersfield with no connections to any journalists, any politicians – I was just able to create this platform for free, network with a load of people from across the country who were interested in a similar position to me and wanted to write about politics, because of the opportunities that social media provided me. And I’d say my big recommendation still is for young people to harness that and for students to harness that and obviously, the particular forms that that takes are changing all the time. So in current circumstances, I wouldn’t necessarily recommend Twitter, which was the route that I used. You know, it’s still very powerful in terms of getting you seen by people in the media, and that’s been a benefit. But you know, the likes of TikTok is a huge platform, and I’ve seen many people who you wouldn’t call traditional political commentators become basically TikTok commentators on politics and gain 10s of thousands of followers in a way that, you know, I don’t have the aptitude to master now, but I’m sure plenty of people who are studying at York at the minute will have those skills. And they are not skills that are held widely in media outlets around the country, even though they recognise that the likes of TikTok, Instagram, new media platforms are ways that they can promote their journalism. So I’d say really try and tap into that clamour from new organisations to harness these new technologies.
Kate:
That’s really interesting, and the idea that actually younger people could already bring something really valuable and a different experience to other colleagues already working in the industry, that’s an interesting way to flip the power dynamic there as well.
Sam:
Yeah, and I think actually lots of, not just in terms of actually using the technology itself, but writing about the trends that are happening on those platforms, there is a massive demand for it in broadcasters, in newspapers. Often that’s where you’ll get your opportunities, because an editor will turn to your person and say, you know – “Write about what’s going on on TikTok.” And you know, that might get you your first byline, your first on air camera appearance and then, you know, once you’ve done that, once you get your name in print or your face on telly, then it can kind of snowball from there. So I’d say, yeah, definitely lean into that.
Kate:
Amazing! Well, for more info about the careers we’ve mentioned today, I’m going to add some relevant links to the episode description and a link to the full transcript of today’s show. But Sam, thanks so much for taking the time to do this. Really, really fascinating insight into what your world involves. So thank you, I really appreciate it. And I know a lot of students will be really interested to hear this, so thanks.
Sam:
No, no, absolute pleasure. Thank you.
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