Listen to this and all the previous episodes.

Useful links:

Benji’s work:

• Benji’s website
• Benji’s LinkedIn profile
• Composer Wellbeing Collective

Relevant bodies/campaigns:

• PCAM
• Musician’s union – Broken Record Appeal and Festival
• Guardian article on protecting artists

Careers in the Music Sector:

• Jobs Adverts at Musical Chairs
• Music Jobs
• Music Week Jobs Board
• The Guardian Music job adverts
• Music jobs as Jobs.ac.uk
• FindAPhD.com
• FindAMasters.com
• Star Now – Talent website
• Creative Access
• 10 Music Trends for the Next 10 Years

To hear more Media and Creative sector related podcast stories:

• All roads lead to filmmaking, Richard Knight
• Getting involved with theatre, John Tomlinson
• From lecture theatres to film sets, Hannah Greig
• Historical Consulting for Video Games, Nick Gliserman
• Running an advertising firm, Luke D’Arcy

Transcript:

Kate:

You’re listening to the What Do You Actually Do? podcast. Each week we want to bring you an inspiring interview, a useful tip or encouraging message to help you find your place in the professional world. 

Hello and welcome to this episode of What Do You Actually Do? My name’s Kate Morris and I’ll be your host today. In today’s episode we’ll be talking about working as a professional music composer in the film and TV sector. Today, we’re joined by Benji Merrison, who’s an Emmy and IFMCA award nominated composer, who scored hundreds of projects with film, television and live events. So, Benji, what do you actually do? 

Benji:

Hi Kate, how are you doing? Thanks for having me on as well. 

Kate:

Thank you for coming. 

Benji:

Yeah, so I mean, I’m a composer and I’ve worked for, well, many years now – probably too many years – as you say, across film and TV. I started out kind of doing smaller things really for TV, what you might call short form, small segments for TV like title sequences and adverts, and things like that. And then gradually sort of moved into a longer form composition, so TV series and films, and that kind of thing. So yeah. 

Kate:

What are the key elements of your role? Are you kind of waking up and a tune pops into your head and it’s like – ‘yes, that’s excellent, I’ve done some composition’, or are you going to meetings to kind of pitch your services to different clients? How does it work? 

Benji:

Yeah, I mean, it’s funny, because when I started out and I was at York University, I didn’t really know you could have a job as a composer, there was no sort of role model or anyone who had done it that I knew doing film and TV composition, so I kind of had to work it all out myself. And to be honest, to some degree, there is an element to my days, you know I’ve kind of defined my job by virtue of the fact that it’s, I suppose, not the most common thing out there. But yeah, ironically, it’s funny, I do get asked that question a lot – do you wake up in the middle of the night, or do you get up in the morning and you got this thing you have to get out. And the answer is no, very rarely, because usually I know what I’m doing, you know, I know what the plan is. And, you know, you have to remember that although there is a lot of creativity, obviously, that goes into it. But it also has a function – its form and function what we do. So, you know, to some degree, I’ve already mapped out an entire score, you know, from the start of a project, really. And so it’s, I suppose, it’s just painting in the colours and the detail over the period of the composition process. 

Kate:

I’ve always wondered, because often music goes so well with whatever is on film, whether that’s kind of more of your nature work or a scene in a kind of film with actors. Does the director say to you – ‘oh, we’re going for a scary, terrifying feel here’, or ‘something really cute, cuddly’, and you kind of come up with a piece of music. Or do you sort of see what’s been produced, and then you add stuff around that. How does that side of it work? 

Benji:

Yes, it’s a good question. And the answer is there are different ways that you might approach scoring. But I suppose at first, especially if it’s a new director, you do need to define, you need to kind of align what your kind of ideas about the score are rather than just launching in. I mean, I rarely would do that from the very start – is launch in and just kind of like go for a particular area. I’m always looking at the overarching form of the the score itself. There is a process within composition called temping, which is that the director may use other people’s work or indeed my work from previous projects to get a feel for the trajectory or the shape of a particular sequence. And sometimes that is useful, although it does have pitfalls as well. But then sometimes, you know, I might select some of my previous work to try out a picture, for example, and then the director may get inspired by a particular sound or a particular feel or chord progression or something like that, and then you go from there. So I suppose the answer is – it kind of depends like any creative process, it’s about conversation, really. It’s about conversation between you and the director, and then eventually which develops into a conversation between the film and the audience. 

Kate:

So it sounds like it’s a really collaborative process rather than you just kind of sitting in a room deciding that this is the piece of music that’s going to work. There’s a kind of toing and froing involved. 

Benji:

Oh, yeah, lots of that. And then there are numerous people and characters that I work with regularly as well who, you know, feed in and there’s input there. So it’s definitely a collaboration and that’s how I’d like it I think. I suppose every composer is different, but I am quite collaborative. I do like, I love getting other people’s opinions and ideas. If I think it’s wrong in the end, then that’s fine, but at least hear them out and try the idea. You know, I’ll often try many ideas for a particular scene, you know, and I’m not offended if the director turns around and says – ‘I don’t like it’. I mean, it’s either right for the film or it isn’t right. I don’t have any personal opinion on it. 

Kate:

You mentioned earlier you studied at York. you did a Music and Music Technology degree, followed by a Masters in Music Technology. So what led you to composing particularly? How did you work out that’s what you wanted to focus on? And how did you actually start earning money from that? Because that can be the tricky thing, can’t it, you can have an idea, but then how do you really make that happen? 

Benji:

Yeah, to be honest, I didn’t really have a clue what I wanted to do after York, I sort of muddled through. I mean, I knew I wanted to be in creative industries, but I’d helped to organise a festival called SightSonic and got involved with digital arts sort of the turn of the millennium kind of time. And so I kind of got involved with audio-visual arts, I suppose, and then through – that was on my CV, I suppose – and then I did a year’s work at a really cool company called KMA Interactive in York. And again, that was doing kind of websites and flash things, and audio-visual stuff. So I was quite lucky, really, that there was a kind of seamless flow into something creative. And then, yeah, I moved down to London, made the leap and just started working for a TV company and gradually, I suppose, just muscled my way in. You know, I didn’t really have a plan – I just knew that I liked doing sort of visual stuff and music. And I just kept bashing on at people to let me have a chance at doing a bit of music, or doing this, that and the other. And eventually… It’s like a rolling stone, isn’t it – it takes a while to get started, but after a while I was like – oh, people are actually coming back to me and offering me paid jobs, you know, this is cool. And so I’d started off and I wasn’t really that fussy. I just started off doing, you know, if someone had fifty quid or something to do a sound effect, then I would just do that. My only thing was like – as long as I get paid something for doing something, then it’s a professional thing. So, I’ve got to be honest, I didn’t really have a plan. I mean a lot of composers I think go to music college and they study film composition. I wasn’t one of those, but I was prepared to sort of muck in and do the long hours, and just do whatever – if someone wanted something doing to do with music, I would do it, I’d do all of it. 

Kate:

Is that sort of… I’m guessing now that you’re more, you know, further up the ladder that you’re seeing the sort of younger people coming in, is that proactive attitude, seizing opportunities, getting involved, being enthusiastic, trying out different things – is that still the thing to get you noticed? Or is there any sense of snobbery around – you should have professional technical training in composition and that’s the route that we prefer now. What’s the sort of state of play nowadays? 

Benji:

I mean, I think it depends. In terms of music, your background in music – obviously it gives you an advantage to have as much knowledge of both music theory and also the technological side of it. And in a sense York was brilliant for me because I had the sort of more traditional training with the Music degree and then went on to do the Music Technology Masters, which gave me the fundamentals of the technology side. But yeah, I think the ability to… I do speak to a lot of young people actually nowadays, and I always try to talk to everyone, you know, on the phone for half an hour or something like that at least to give some… So I’ve got a good barometer of where people are at. And I’d say the thing that I would definitely recommend is that resourcefulness, that entrepreneurial spirit of – do it yourself, don’t rely on someone else to give it to you, because there’s a lot of people out there in the industry, across all of the creative industries, that in a way they will or they can exploit that vulnerability. So if you’re not vulnerable, if you’re not expecting too much, if you’re not hoping someone will make your dream for you, then you’re in a position of power. You know, I’d say – go and make your own dreams, go and do it yourself. That’s definitely the advice I’d give to young people who are starting out. And it’s probably not what a lot of people want to hear to some degree, because culturally we are sold this dream about the arts that someone will discover you, someone will find your genius, But actually the reality that I’ve experienced with most successful people in the arts is – they’ve gone out and they’ve done it themselves. 

Kate:

Yeah, I think I’ve definitely seen that in other graduates as well working in creative industries, where they have wanted to break into production or directing and what have you, and doing those hard miles kind of doing the running jobs, etc. But really seizing those opportunities, making it happen and not giving up – that seems to be the thing that makes the difference. And as you say, it’s difficult because often the way that a lot of graduate recruiters promote themselves is, you know, come on this scheme, or here are the nicely packaged up job opportunities, and it just doesn’t work in that way in the creative industries. so it can feel like – isn’t it supposed to be like a nicely advertised vacancy, what’s going wrong here, am I missing something. But it’s just a different approach. And I like that example of having that entrepreneurial attitude, because you work freelance, presumably? 

Benji:

That’s right, yeah. And I think, you’re sort of a composer, but you’ve also got to be a business person as well, because you’ve got to do the meetings, even if it’s not necessarily… I mean, I quite enjoy the sort of business side of it, but to some degree it drains me. I prefer the writing of the music, but I know that I can’t just hide behind the writing of the music because eventually no one’s going to want me to write music. So, you know, I have to get out there and force myself to, you know, to go to industry events, or film festivals, and do the meetings and try and rattle every tree that I can and see what fruit falls off, or it looks like it’s about to fall off and then follow that. So I think being entrepreneurial is definitely a skill that’s required in the arts nowadays. 

Kate:

Are there any other sort of technical skills related to that? Obviously, you need to be gifted in music, you need to have those communication skills to do all the collaboration, you need to be able to do the networking and have that proactive entrepreneurial attitude. But in terms of those business skills, is there anything specific that you would say – look you need to be able to do this or learn how to do it, if you want to be not just successful but happy and not feeling totally drained all the time, if you want to work in this kind of role? 

Benji:

Definitely. So do you mean on the business side of it specifically? 

Kate:

Yeah, I mean, on the business side definitely, but if there’s anything else that springs to mind, then that would be really useful to hear about as well. 

Benji:

Well, yeah, you’ve also touched on something, which is the idea of mental health and wellbeing within the creative industry, which is a massive topic and something which I feel very strongly about as well. But to cover the business side of it, yeah, I think having a good knowledge of how the music industry works, you know, getting your head around the royalty system, music publishing, how commissioning kind of generally works, although obviously there is a degree of variance – not obviously necessarily to your listeners – but there is a degree of variance in how things are commissioned. But I think at least having an overview of that, and there’s some great literature out there for that purpose as well. So definitely getting one’s head around the business end of it – it just gives you that little bit of security and a knowledge that then you are, going into negotiations… And just things that, again, just to reiterate, being very careful about doing free work. You know, the amount of people that I speak to, and I don’t judge anyone, by the way. If someone does take on free work, I get it. You know, sometimes you just need to try and get an opportunity. But I think you have to ask yourself, if someone isn’t paying anything, they could be asking a thousand other people to do it. I mean, it’s limitless who they could be asking to do it, apart from how many emails they can fire out. I think just getting a good knowledge of roughly how the industry works. You’re never going to know everything on day one, of course, but reading up about music publishing and getting your head around how the potential revenue streams work on an industry level – it just gives you those tools that you need to get started, I would say. So yeah, I hope that makes sense. 

Kate:

Yeah, definitely. With the payment side of things, I think that it could be notoriously difficult to know how much to charge, and what your value is. I know that Bectu used to publish kind of actors’ salaries and other sorts of creative industries. Is there anything that you would recommend that people look at to get a sense of what’s sort of reasonable and realistic to be asking for in terms of payment? 

Benji:

I haven’t seen anything recently, but I have to say I haven’t really been looking per se. But I remember, you know, there were organisations like PCAM that used to give a kind of sense of rates and things like that. It changes all the time. Because, without wanting to go too much into the long grass about it, you know, different broadcasters have certain expectations about things and certain apparently set rates, which I’ve since found out are not that set, it’s just a bargaining tool. So it’s a minefield, it’s hard to know. And also then you’ve got the, what I call, the back end side of things, which is the royalties and maybe soundtrack release advances, things like that. So sometimes you’ve got to factor it all into an overall package. You know, there may not be as much of a fee up front, but then you’re looking at a better split on the publishing side of things, which could then, you can take a view on it as a bit… I would say, when starting out… I mean, I kept things simple because initially, really, I was only doing work for hire. There wasn’t really a huge amount of royalties, let’s say, because the stuff I was doing was fairly low key, it was just stuff for companies and things like that. So I would just try and sort of drown out some of the noise and think, what do I need to be professional, to make this a professional job, then I can build on that. And that’s what I did at the very start – I set myself a monthly target of I needed to hit that amount every month. And it wasn’t very much because I knew the first year would be difficult and probably wouldn’t earn a lot of money. But I at least had that target in mind so that meant that when jobs came in, I could say – OK, well, that’s my target, and now I divide that by four weeks and then I divide that by five days, because I don’t want to work on the weekends. And then you come to some kind of figure where you’re at. But in terms of industry-wide rates, there is no union for composers. I don’t know quite how I feel about that, but I probably wish there was more guidance. But there isn’t, and there’s, you know, it does feel sometimes like composers can be the pinch point when it comes to the budgets shrinking, because the musicians that we get to play on our pieces do have a union, and there are various other kinds of safeguards for other people. But the composer’s is often the path of least resistance. So, you know, I have seen lots of examples where they let people make no money out of a project. I don’t think that’s a great thing again, but ultimately… I think it’s a race to the bottom. But ultimately, they are the pressures of the industry to some degree, or can be the pressures. So I think it’s just being mindful of that, really. That was a very long and rambling answer to that, Kate. I apologise about that. 

Kate:

No, it’s great, and I think it’s important. It sounds like basically arming yourself with as much knowledge as you can around this, as you say, the business side and then how the different revenue models work. And I guess just taking the opportunities to meet with like minded people who are working in the sector as well, and getting a sense if you get to that level where you can actually discuss what people are charging for different projects to give you that benchmark of – OK, that’s what I do. But I love that example of actually having a target in mind, because again, with freelance, it can be just – take anything that comes along or, you know, take any amount of money you can. So you know, to have some structure around that to help you work out the practicalities of what do I need to live on, how many hours and how many days do I want to be working? I think that’s really useful advice. 

Benji:

Oh good, yeah, I just think, you know, ultimately sometimes there’s a lot of noise in the industry. There’s a lot of people who will tell you a certain thing, or give good advice, and bad advice or, you know, but actually to simplify it for yourself, especially when you’re starting out. And I do think that people should regard it as a profession, and a profession is something that’s paid. You know, your time is paid for, albeit with music it’s slightly more flexible in terms of how that payment happens. But still, when you’re starting out, I think setting yourself some kind of target is sensible, and it stops you being exploited because there are certain things that you can draw the line at and go ‘Oh no, I’m so sorry, I don’t do that. I don’t do free pitches, or I don’t do this on the other’. 

Kate:

There’s something really around valuing yourself there. 

Benji:

Yeah. I mean, it’s a problem across the Arts. Especially at the moment. Is the Arts valued, especially in Covid times? Well, clearly it’s one of the first things that’s had to be put on ice. I get it. But it’s trying to avoid a complete race to the bottom. And I’m not saying that it is that bad at the moment, but I think we’ve got to be careful, and we do need to value the Arts, because they, you know…. What’s the last thing that people do on their deathbed? Do they sort of pick up the Financial Times, or do they want to read a book, or listen to their favourite music, or watch their favourite film? Well, it’s going to be those things, isn’t it? 

Kate:

That would be very sad if your dying wish was to read the Financial Times. 

Benji:

You never know. There might be some people out there. I don’t don’t want to offend people who really love the Financial Times. 

Kate:

What sort of impact has the pandemic had on your work then? Because presumably if you’re freelancing – like I saw in the background earlier like a million instruments in your house – are you normally working from home? Do you have a studio that you go to? Has it kind of shut down opportunities, or because everyone’s been watching TV, has it created more opportunities? What’s been going on for you? 

Benji:

A bit of both really, quite a mixed bag. I mean, I was quite fortunate that I’ve got two little ones, so I set up camp. I’ve got a studio at the bottom of my garden, you know, sort of granny annexe, I suppose. So I was already fairly well set up for remote working because I’d been doing it for a good few years. And also workwise, I’d got a couple of fairly big projects that had been confirmed before the pandemic. But having said that, those projects have been severely affected in terms of the overall timescales and just the way they’ve been filmed. And then there were other projects that maybe were happening that stopped, particularly the film side of things, because the film just shut down overnight pretty much, nothing was being filmed, no new stuff was being commissioned. Thankfully, things have started to pick up now. And as you say, there’s been a lot of consumption of the – I mean I hate the word content – but, you know, the stuff that’s out there already. So there have been a lot of new inquiries. And it sounds from friends and other colleagues I know that people are fairly busy, again, thankfully, and it’s great to see because I know other colleagues who were severely affected by it, and couldn’t get access to the grants for whatever technical reason and all of that. So it’s a bit of both, I have to say. But I think one has to, you know, you’ve got to count your blessings with these things, I’ve been very fortunate. People have had it a lot worse than me, so yeah, I certainly wouldn’t want to complain.

Kate:

You sort of touched upon earlier a link between being conscious about mental health and working in this sector. Would you say that’s kind of particularly an issue with the pandemic and everything that’s been going on, or is that something that’s already there, because it’s part of the nature of the sector itself? 

Benji:

I think it’s part of the nature of the sector. I’ve been involved with an organisation called the Composer Wellbeing Collective, and we focus specifically on this area of trying to provide some kind of safe space and support for composers, specifically who are not really covered by any existing organisation. I mean, the others do provide some good support, PRS. But equally, there’s a kind of politics there as well with those organisations. I’m not saying they are bad politics. it’s just, you know, they have agendas. So we have tried to provide something that’s completely impartial. But that aside, I’ve noticed over the years the effects on me of working in a solitary way, which a lot of composers do for years and years and years, and the pressures of unrealistic expectations from clients, you know, the budget side of things, working ridiculous hours… And then you combine that with what I think is a natural predisposition of creative people – to be, you know, to go inside themselves a little bit and have anxieties, or self-doubt and all those kinds of things. So all of those things combined have resulted in what I think is… I mean, put it this way, I’ve not really met any composer that hasn’t struggled with some kind of something related to sort of mental health or anxiety, or that kind of thing over the years. I’m not saying that everyone’s wracked with… You know, I’ve noticed that when you talk about it with composers, most people have got a story. 

Kate:

That’s fantastic that you’ve set up that organisation to get that, I guess, peer to peer support, because I imagine part of the issue is if you are working in isolation and there is an element of competitiveness around kind of winning jobs etc, to actually be able to have people who can relate to how you feel and feel part of a wider team, even though you may not be working as a team, must be a really good source of support. 

Benji:

I think so. I think, you know, hopefully it gives other composers the thing of like – oh, that’s the person, like you say, who won the job that I didn’t get. But then you speak to them and you realise they’re actually a really nice person, not just trying to steal your job, you know, but actually they’ve experienced the same thing on the previous job. And it lightens the load a little bit. I mean, it’s like anything when you share it. But I do find it a little bit bizarre that still to this day the industry – and society in general – can’t seem to get their head around the fact that a composer doesn’t have to just be one person with a manuscript and a baton. Because that’s not really how modern composition is done, especially on film and TV. It’s at a computer, it’s quite technical, it’s Problem-Solving, and often it requires quite a big team, really, due to the time scales and the speed at which you have to write. I mean, that’s one of the big challenges is – we could be having to produce an hour’s worth of top quality music every single week for eight weeks in a row, including orchestral recording and mix, and everything else. That’s a serious logistical challenge. You know, this image of a composer as this kind of wizened genius who, as you say, wakes up in the morning or goes to bed at night thinking of the idea – it’s actually, you know, whilst as I say, the creativity is very much part of it, it’s a job, it’s a production job, really, in many ways. 

Kate:

I wonder then if that’s going to be sort of, moving forward, perhaps there will be more teams working as a partnership, perhaps with composition at the very least, because of the introduction of technology and these really fast turnaround ways that you expected to hear. And I guess people always want more for less, don’t they? So I guess that’s not going away. So I wonder if that will change the sector a bit, which might, you know, help with some of those sorts of anxieties and feeling isolated aspect of it. 

Benji:

Yeah, I think definitely like when you’re…. I’m really fortunate I would say, I have quite a decent sort of team of people, depending on the project. And I also co-write with my good friend Will Slater on a lot of the Attenborough stuff and things like that. You know, it’s brilliant because I get to share my [work] you know, and not get to that point where I’m overwhelmed anymore. And I do hope that that model is accepted more and more, because in the past, what I’ve noticed is, or what I know, is that composers have been forced, and it’s not really their fault, but they’ve been forced to keep this image of them as the sole composer. But behind the scenes, they’ve got a whole team of people squirrelling away doing the graft. But it’s not been seen as good PR to admit that, because if the director or the production company think that you’re not the wizened genius writing every single tiny little detail of note, then they would lose confidence in you. But actually the opposite I think is true. If you’ve got a good scalable structure and team ready to go, I think it’s a position of power, because it means you can turn things around really quickly if productions need it, and often they do nowadays because of the impact of digital technology, meaning that people can fiddle right until the last minute nowadays. 

Kate:

Is that sort of, looking ahead then of how the sector is changing and developing, and if there’s kind of anything that students or recent grads who are wanting to break into the sector should keep in mind? Is there anything they should anticipate? Anything they should try and upskill on? So you’ve mentioned how technology is becoming more and more important, having a fast turnaround time. Is there anything else that’s going to be, and I guess also recovering from the pandemic and the film industry is hopefully getting back up on its feet again. Any sort of other particular key challenges do you think it’s worth people knowing about? 

Benji:

It’s hard to know, isn’t it? Because it feels like it could be a really pivotal time, you know, when the media and the whole way that the arts are consumed in general is changing. And thankfully, there are, you know, things like the Broken Record campaign, which is just literally just got recognised by MPs. And it looks like there are going to be changes in the music industry, at least how recording artists are paid for streaming. There is obviously an appetite for change at the moment, so it’s hard to know exactly where that is going to lead. But I think being up on the developments in the wider music industry and film, and then keeping on top of technology. I mean I’ve always done that from the early York days; I just made sure I really, really learnt as many packages, I got my head around all the technology. I’ve always been reading blogs and websites, and message boards, and trying to just get my head around all of it to do with the industry and soak up as much knowledge as I can. Because, you know, knowledge is power, isn’t it? And it allows you to adapt and change. And I think in this day and age, your ability to adapt and change, and respond to an industry is probably more valuable than any sort of innate genius, really. 

Kate:

And I guess on that, it sounds like you’re self-teaching, if that’s the right word, with new stuff that comes out, but you also had that formal training. Would you say it’s worth people investing in postgraduate study, or would they be better off gaining experience and then doing, perhaps, learning specific packages, which they might need to pay to access to get a diploma in this, or become a professional level of that, but what’s that balance between the sort of academic qualification side of it with the actual just getting on with it, and finding out for yourself? 

Benji:

Yeah, I think there’s a weird sort of dichotomy there. Well, maybe I’ll just give my opinion then. So, I mean, I loved my Masters degree, I thought it was brilliant. It was one of the best years I had in my life, really. And because it was quite academic and it wasn’t totally focused on what you might call a more vocational thrust, it was a bit old school, basically. It was all music technology, but it was like the music technology of the 70s, you know. And I loved it for that reason, because it felt free and it felt like we were thinking more about concepts, rather than any specific detail of a package. So I would say – absolutely, you should take your education to the point that feels right for you as an individual, if you’re done, you’re done, you know, ultimately. But I think pushing that bit on extra and giving yourself that extra time to think about the concepts and the idea, because a lot of the ideas that I’ve got now were formed in that Masters degree. And had I not done that, well, obviously my life would have gone in a different way, but it was definitely formed by that postgraduate degree. And I think it just gives you that extra luxury year before you hit the grim reality of the commercial world to really get those fundamental concepts and resilience and creative kinds of avenues going, whatever it is. So I would say – do it, absolutely. But, you know, it’s always down to the individual person, isn’t it? For some people it wouldn’t be appropriate. But for me personally, I absolutely loved the postgraduate degree. It was one of the best things I did. 

Kate:

That’s good to know that it sounds like whatever suits the individual person is okay, there’s no kind of – ‘you have to do this, or you have to do that’. That’s useful to know. 

Benji:

I think in general my message would be – do what’s right for you, and don’t rely on anyone else to make that decision for you, and don’t rely on anyone else to make your career or get you started. There are going to be people who are going to help. They’re going to be people like me who give a bit of advice. But ultimately, you’ve got to do it yourself and it has to come from within. 

Kate:

Brilliant! Well, that seems like a positive note to end on. And so for more info about the careers we’ve mentioned today and the resources that Benji’s mentioned, I’ll add some relevant links to the show notes and a link to the full transcript of today’s show. But Benji, thank you so much. That was really, really interesting and useful. And thank you for taking time out of composing amazing music to talk to us. 

Benji:

Oh, thanks, Kate. I really appreciate you having me on.

Kate:

Thank you for joining us this week on ‘What Do You Actually Do?’. This episode was hosted by me, Kate Morris, edited by Stephen Furlong, and produced by both of us. If you love this podcast, spread the word and follow us. Are you eager to get more tips? Follow University of York Careers and Placements on YouTube, Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. All useful links are in this episode’s description? This has been produced at the University of York Careers and Placements. For more information visit york.ac.uk/careers