What Do You Actually Do? Episode 62: Jack Ventress, Barrister

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Listen to this and all the previous episodes.

Kate talks to York graduate Jack about training to be a barrister. Jack studied History and decided to train as a barrister after completing the Teach First Programme. Jack explains what skills you need, what he does each day and how you shouldn’t be put off by thinking it isn’t a career for you.

Jack’s bio:

Hi, I’m Jack, a graduate of the University of York and aspiring barrister. I graduated with a BA in History in 2015 and decided to pursue a career at the Bar in 2019, after completing the Teach First Programme. My route into the legal profession has (so far) involved two years of study (GDL and Bar Course), a year working for a judge at the Court of Appeal and a few months working at a litigation firm in Toronto. I will begin my pupillage (which is essentially a year-long apprenticeship) in Autumn 2023.

Useful resources provided by Jack:

Scholarships (GDL and Bar Course)

Outreach

Volunteer/short-term work experience

Paid/long-term work experience

Blogs/current awareness

Podcasts

Miscellaneous/directories

Other useful links:

Related podcast episodes:

Transcript 

Kate 

You’re listening to the ‘What Do You Actually Do?’ podcast. Each week we want to bring you an inspiring interview, a useful tip, or encouraging message to help you find your place in the professional world. 

Hello and welcome to this episode of ‘What Do You Actually Do?’. My name is Kate Morris and I’ll be your host today. In today’s episode we’ll be talking about becoming a barrister. Today we’re joined by Jack Ventress, who’s training to become a barrister and is currently undertaking a placement with a Canadian litigation firm. So, Jack, what do you actually do? 

Jack 

Hi Kate! Well the first answer to that I guess is what I’m actually doing at the moment, which is, as you said – I’m based out here in Canada, I’m working in a litigation firm over here called Stockwoods. They do incredibly interesting work, they sort of have their fingers in the criminal law, they do administrative law, which is law involving government entities, and they also do lots of commercial work as well. So from my point of view, as someone who’s quite early on in my career and hasn’t really worked out exactly what path I want to follow at the Bar yet, it’s really fantastic experience.  

Kate 

What’s your role there then? If you’re working with this firm, what are the sort of key elements of what you’re doing? 

Jack 

Yeah, so a lot of it so far has been either discrete tasks on matters that are going on already. So one of the partners might find me an e-mail and say – “Look, I need some research doing on this defence. We want to know if this defence is something we could run on trial. We want you to go away and look at the case law. What do the major decisions in this area say about this particular area of law? And could you come back to us, you know, in a week or so with an opinion?”. Or it’s been working on, more being part of the team as it were, so not doing discrete tasks, but actually being a part of the legal team on the trial. And in fact, I just got back from three weeks in Ottawa, where I was actually part of the team, and so I was in court every day on a trial that was going on there. So that was also great experience.  

Kate 

And what’s your motivation for being there? What kind of made you wanna go out to Canada, and kind of, I guess, would you describe this as a mini pupillage, an internship a secondment? How would you define this kind of bit of experience that you’re having out there. 

Jack 

I think secondment is probably the best way of describing it. And similar things happen in the solicitors profession. I’ve got friends who have gone to Brussels, I’ve got friends who’ve gone to Paris from their London law firms every year. It’s quite rare at the Bar to have the opportunity to spend some time in a different jurisdiction, so that was one of the things really in itself that appealed to me. Another thing is that, you know, as a barrister, when I’m eventually in practice, I’ll be working with solicitors a lot, and due to the nature of the legal profession over here in Canada, there’s less of a distinction between, you know, the work of a barrister and a solicitor. It’s a lot more confused, and so by spending a year in a litigation firm over here, I actually get a pretty good insight into how solicitors firm might work back over in the UK, and so that’s going to be helpful when it comes to dealing with my solicitor clients in London as a barrister. 

Kate 

That’s really interesting. So it’s a kind of, it’s interesting working abroad and having this interesting life experience, but also to better understand potential colleagues that you’ll be working with, and what their responsibilities are and priorities are, is going to help you to be a more effective barrister. It’s a double whammy! 

Jack 

I mean just to add to that as well, I mean the Canadian legal system is very, very much based on the English common law system. And so, although its own body of case law has developed, the sort of underlying principles are very similar. So it’s actually useful to be able to, you know, it’s not a year out of my legal training in the UK, it’s definitely a complementary year. 

Kate 

You’ve got a lot of qualifications. So you’ve completed an undergrad degree in History, and then went on to become a qualified teacher before changing direction and undertaking the graduate Diploma in Law, and then the Bar vocational studies course. So what was your starting point for considering a legal career? And where did your interest in becoming a barrister come from? 

Jack 

Right, so I actually vividly remember being in 3rd year at York. I graduated in 2015, so this would have been in about 2015, and you know, searching, trying to work out what I wanted to do. Law was always something I found pretty interesting. You know, I really enjoyed my history degree, I sort of quite liked the aspect of it which involves, you know, reading through and working out the arguments, and sort of weighing them up against each other. But I remember something happening in 3rd year that sort of put me off the legal profession. I remember looking at careers at the Bar and just deciding – that sounds fantastic, but it’s just frankly out of my reach, it’s not something I’d be able to do. And I think things that coloured that at the time were the fact that I was the first person in my family to be at university, and we didn’t really have any legal contacts in the profession. And so I decided to do something else that appealed to me as well, which was Teach First programme, and I had three really enjoyable years doing that. But I think doing that and having graduated, and done pretty well with my degree meant that I had a bit of confidence. So it was, I think, my third year of teaching, I was sort of trying to decide whether I wanted to connect to that as a career for life, or whether I wanted to give the legal career, which I set aside, a ago. Speaking this over with a few friends who were at the Bar actually persuaded me that this was something I could have a reasonable shot at, and so I decided to do the GDL. We can talk about the path that people take to go to the Bar. Mine was probably, as I sort of alluded to, less of a traditional one, but I sort of took the first step, which was to do the GDL and from there I haven’t really looked back. 

Kate 

That’s fascinating, and the fact that you sort of had that interest, but you talked yourself out of it to start off with, because you just felt like you didn’t belong there. But then, you know, achieving actual academic and then work related qualifications, and building up that experience, helped you to see – ‘oh maybe I could give it a go’. 

Jack 

Right, I think that’s probably something that’s you know, not going to describe the path that everyone takes. Lots of people are very set from an early stage that they want to go to the Bar. But other people do, you know, they come from different backgrounds, from having done a PhD or having done another job as well. So it’s certainly not the case that there’s one route that you need to follow. And if you’re someone who maybe feels quite distant from the Bar but is interested in coming to the Bar, all you need to do is look at your experience and just try and work out what the transferable skills are. I mean, for me, I’ve spent three years teaching in a classroom, in a quite challenging classroom as well, so there was lots that I could sort of mine from that experience to be able to talk about in my applications and my interviews when they actually came along. 

Kate 

So I guess on that, what were the things that you would say you really need to have as personal strengths or qualities to, not just be successful as a barrister and getting into the Bar, but sort of happy as well – feeling like this is something that I can relax enough to enjoy it. 

Jack 

Yeah, I think the most important one is being someone who really needs to understand how things work. You’ve got to be on top of your brief. If you’re representing a client in court, you need to know exactly what has led to the situation they’re in. But you also need to know the legal issues surrounding that, so you need to be able to have a conversation with a judge, or perhaps be able to give legal advice which is relevant to your client’s issue. So I think that’s going to be a struggle unless you’re someone who really likes to know, sort of, how things work. You also need to be confident speaking and you need to be able to speak, I would say in public, but obviously in the courtroom – that’s a really important thing as well. And if you’re not someone who’s comfortable speaking, then it’s going to be quite difficult to get through each stage I think. That’s not to say that there are some parts of the Bar where people don’t really do that much advocacy. I think I remember a friend telling me that his mini pupillage, which is a sort of mini work experience in a commercial chambers, he was surprised to learn that actually some of the barristers there hadn’t been in court for a few weeks or even a few months because much of their work there was paper based. That’s another thing I think that is really important to say, is that there’s space for a whole range of personalities and different types of people at the Bar. It’s not the case that you need to be, you know, Rumpole of the Bailey, someone who’s able to step into a courtroom and sort of dazzle them with your wit. There is certainly a space for the sort of more introverted and cerebral types at the bar as well. 

Kate  

So what’s the thing that you really love about it then? Because you’ve invested a lot of time to sort of progress this plan? What’s the thing that keeps you going and makes you want to pursue it further? 

Jack 

Well, I think the idea of representing someone in court is really something that keeps me going. I think that’s such a fantastic thing to be able to do. And I actually had my first taste of that pretty recently. There’s an organization called the FRU, which is the free representation unit, and it just means that people who aren’t qualified barristers but who are students – people like me – can represent a client before the Employment Tribunal, and so that was a really rewarding thing. I think that’s something that would keep me going, I think, throughout my career. 

Kate 

What about the worst aspect then? Because it sounds like it’s quite a long slog to make this happen. What’s the worst bit? 

Jack 

Well, that’s a tough question. Well, I guess I think we need to work hard, you know. You need to be able to put in the hours, but I sort of think that, you know, no matter who you are, if you’re someone who wants to be good at what you do, then you will be prepared to put in the hours. And so although that’s something that might have some impact in your life here and there, you know, I think the payoff is worth it, because the privilege of representing someone, the privilege of being relied on as a specialist to be able to give legal advice is, I think, something that’s really worth it. 

Kate 

I don’t know if you are able to answer this, but I’ve met someone who had a career as a barrister. What’s the right word, where it’s – you’re not employed by the individual person, it’s the one where it’s like a public sector one. So it’s if somebody can’t afford legal representation. 

Jack 

Sounds like potentially a legal aid barrister. 

Kate 

Yeah, that’s it, a legal aid barrister. And they were describing how it was quite a frustrating role because they’d only get given the case maybe a day or so before they were actually due in court, and they would have to travel all over the country to represent people. Is that the same as if you’re working for a commercial organisation, or is it a bit different? Do you have more time to prepare and sort of really research your case or is that just how… 

Jack 

Yeah, maybe just to take a step back from that question. It might be helpful just to talk about the different areas of the Bar. You have the criminal bar. At the criminal bar, because of the nature of the cases you’ll be taking on, you will probably be doing a lot of legal aid-funded work. Legal aid is there to ensure that people who can’t afford legal advice and representation can get it when they need it. At the other end of the spectrum, there are chambers which don’t do criminal work at all, and in fact the chamber that I’m going to be doing my training at does some criminal work, but also does some civil work, so it does some employment work, it does some commercial work, it does some family work. Chambers which don’t do criminal work, perhaps those that specialise more in commercial work, will often do more written work, but they’ll perhaps have more cases which take place over a longer period of time, and so there won’t be so much that last minute, you know, dashing into court. That is an issue at the criminal bar, and I think you might have seen that there’s been some big criminal strikes at the criminal bar recently. The whole of August, I think, a lot of barristers at the criminal bar were striking because of, sort of, certainly pay issues, but also just broader issues with the courts not being properly equipped to deal with the number of cases that are going through them. So I think especially somewhere like that, if you’re doing a lot of legal aid-funded work, then resilience is just a really important quality, because you will be getting briefs given to you the day before court, you’ll be having to step into that courtroom, represent someone who, several years of their life may depend on how well you put their case. So that’s a really important thing to be aware of, but also, you know, the privilege of doing that is, I think, something that would make a lot of people tick. 

Kate 

Thank you, that’s really helpful. I think that explains it really well, and I think that’s an important difference to know. And I think it sounds like one’s motivations are really important there in terms of which type of clients and the type of work that you want to be doing. And then you’ve got to look at the context and nature of that work, that it would be sort of involving. You touched upon the strikes there. So what do you think the key challenges will be for barristers and the legal sector over the next few years? Just for students, or recent grads who are thinking about breaking into this sector. What should they anticipate or really kind of think about preparing for? 

Jack 

Yeah. I certainly don’t want… I mean, that’s obviously quite a negative point to make, and I think that’s certainly not relevant to the whole of the Bar, and even lots of criminal practitioners would say that that’s not something which sort of overhangs too much over their practice. You know, I think there’s a lot of changes happening at the Bar. I think the pandemic has changed a lot of stuff. It means that hearings can be done remotely, whereas previously they couldn’t, and I think that that saved a lot of people a lot of time in terms of not having to travel all over the country. I think things becoming more digital in general, that’s also quite a big change, and that’s something that’s relevant to all different types of practice. Whether you’re a planning lawyer, whether you’re an employment lawyer and perhaps one of your clients has been subjected to a decision that was perhaps made automatically. You know, you hear about workers in Amazon warehouses who are sort of managed by algorithms. Those types of people, and those types of issues are coming in thick and fast, and so barristers need to be able to understand them in order to be able to take those cases through the courts. So I think keeping abreast of digital technology changes is quite an important thing. If you’re a criminal barrister, then certainly looking out for the sort of relationship between the Bar and the Ministry of Justice, and what’s happening there is also an important thing as well. 

Kate 

Any sort of final advice for students thinking about working in law generally, and any tips for applying to the Bar course or trying to secure a mini pupillage, because I know that could be quite a competitive process. 

Jack 

Yeah for sure. And I realise we haven’t really spoken too much about the actual steps that you need to take to become a barrister. My route to the Bar was slightly unusual in that I had a second career before, but when I decided to come to the Bar, the first thing for me to do was the GDL, which is the conversion course. So the GDL is a year long course, it’s essentially a distilled undergraduate Law degree – sort of the most important part of the Law degree taken and then put into a year long course. After that to become a barrister you would do the Bar course, that’s the vocational stage – so you learn about court procedure, you learn about how to deliver advocacy, you learn about how to write a legal opinion. And usually during that year people will start thinking about applying for pupillage. Pupillage is essentially a year long apprenticeship, it’s the last stage on the path to becoming a barrister, and it’s where you’re going to be joining barristers in practice to learn on the job about what they do. And then eventually, in the second half of that year, you’re going to be taking on cases for yourself. There’s so many opportunities that are there for people to sort of build their CV’s as they’re going along, and as they’re sort of working out whereabouts they’re going to seek pupillage. One of those places is something I’ve mentioned, which is the free representation unit. I’ve already explained what that does, you know, there are jobs that you can do at the Court of Appeal. So I worked at the Court of Appeal for a year as a judicial assistant, and that involves following a judge around. I say following a judge around for a year, but it’s actually working for a judge for a year, and really just having a kind of access that you wouldn’t otherwise have in terms of seeing how the judiciary make their decisions.  

You’ve mentioned mini pupillages, those are really useful to do. Mini pupillages just are like a very short work experience stint, they’re often 2-3 days, maybe even a week long. That involves spending some time in a barristers chambers, so where most barristers practise from. It’s fantastic to be able to just follow a barrister around, and just work out what they do on a day-to-day basis. And I think I learned an awful lot from doing those mini pupillages. And they’re are also things that you can, you know, sort of mine for… They’re an experience that you can talk about a lot in your pupillage interviews. So those are some things that you can do. Also, I would really recommend looking at the Citizens Advice Bureau, because they will always take volunteers to do, you know, maybe a day a week of voluntary casework. The Law Centres Network is another place to look out for similar sorts of experience. Those are the big ones, and in fact, I’ve put together a little sheet full of some different resources which has got a few more things on it, so I’ll send that over to you after this. 

Kate 

Thank you, that’s amazing. I’m just like writing some of these down… Excellent, you made me a sheet, even better! So it sounds like basically taking as many opportunities as possible to build up both short and longer type experiences, and then using those experiences to help you get the more secure stuff. You obviously saw a real clear link between the skills and experiences you’d built up within the teaching and how that mapped across to this. You mentioned earlier that you felt from a background perspective, you know, there is a stereotype of a barrister being for like posh, rich people, kind of thing. Do you feel that is changing, are there genuinely opportunities for people from different backgrounds? Is it really expensive to train? Is there more funding opportunities? I just wonder if, you know, something that you sort of realised – ‘Actually no, I shouldn’t be held back from this. I’m gonna go for it’. Are you starting to feel that maybe you had the wrong impression of it, or that you had the right impression, but things are changing and improving? 

Jack 

The answer to those question is – yes, it is expensive. It’s a difficult path to take because it can be quite mystified, and lots of people just sort of don’t understand that there are lots of things that are in place to help people who don’t have the contacts and who don’t have the sort of foot in the door that perhaps used to be the case so. And again, I’ve put some of these on the list of resources that I’m going to send you, but in fact one of the really important first stages for me was getting onto a scheme called the Pegasus Access and Support scheme. Now that’s run by one of the Inns of Court. We haven’t really spoken about the Inns of Court much, and just to explain those briefly, they’re buildings in the middle of London, but they’re also organisations. And every barrister needs to be a member of an Inn of Court. I’m a member of Lincoln’s Inn, but at this point I was still, you know, I haven’t actually joined Lincoln’s Inn, because I was still a student. And getting on to this support scheme, which was run by the Inner Temple, meant that I not only had this vote of confidence, which, you know, gave me some confidence early on, but it also gave me some work experience which is really useful. And I remember going for my scholarship interview at Lincoln’s Inn and actually the moment when I mentioned that I’ve gone to this earlier scheme, was pretty much the moment where their pencils started moving. I thought – well, this is actually really good, this is something they’re interested in. And just to explain that scheme, what it is – it’s for people from sort of non-traditional routes into the Bar. I think the criteria are – you have to have gone to a state school, and then you have to fulfill one of either three further criteria, and those further criteria are that you had to have been on free school meals, you’d been a carer, or you were the first person in your family to go to university. And so there are lots of schemes like that. There’s another one called Access to the Bar, and there’s one called Bridging the Bar as well. Those schemes are specifically set up for people who might have, like I did in my third year at York, looked at the Bar and thought – well, actually this looks fantastic, but I just don’t see a route in for me. They are there to, essentially, you know, extend the hand down and give people a lift up that need it. So I really recommend anyone who’s maybe talking themselves out of a career at the Bar to look at those schemes. 

Kate 

Thank you, that’s really helpful, and really kind of reassuring. We’ll definitely put all of the links and the information that we’ve talked about in the episode description and a full link to the transcript of today’s show. But Jack, thank you so much for taking the time to speak to us today. I know you’ve got to like head off back to the courtroom to carry on with your work, but it’s been really interesting and I hope you really enjoy the rest of your time in Canada and then come back to London to finish the rest of your training, and you know, launch this barrister career. Once and for all. 

Jack 

Thank you very much, Kate. Thanks very much for having me.